RDF will lead to LFR, it's not worth it

[Misanthra-grobbulus]

@Hydroxpally-sargeras

Lfr is an absolute bastardized version of the raid.

A very optional one. that doesn’t affect "real"players in any way.

it took a jailor nerf to close out 100 hall of fame for season 3 lol. its not like lfr is getting 1000 hours of dev time and mythic 3. its the other way round. Mythic gets 1000 hours of dev time, lfr 3.

Its not hurting the raid pool. as a lfr hero myself since needed for memories…I never had intentions of higher. raid is not my deal.

The same for many others. especially pvp side. when a boss pve drop is not the fotm BIS for a slot we get real happy. No raid needed.

so that is why a hunter ran lfr in sl. a very nice pvp use only (it really is useless in pve) memory for lego needed a vault hit to close a quest out.

the easiest one to do was…complete 1 wing of lfr. Did that, got craven stratagem…and back to pvp.

[Ziryus-pagle]

@Axxi-faerlina

You cannot use the Dungeon Finder (random or otherwise) for end-game (difficulty) dungeons in Retail, which clearly shows the design intent of Dungeon Finder. Likewise, you cannot use LFR for end-game (difficulty) Raids.

Correct that’s the case in retail now, however it was not the case for dungeons until mythic was added in BFA. It definitely was not the case in Wrath for RDF, there was no step up from heroic dungeons.

[Dnerve-grobbulus]

@Axxi-faerlina

Exactly the same thing. Easier content… automated grouping and porting to the instance.

Sure Dungeon Finder was first introduced during Wrath of the Lich King, when Heroics 5-man dungeons were end-game dungeons, but the design intent is made clear in Retail now, where Heroics, much like LFR are not worth running at end game.

Should Dungeon Finder be included for leveling? It is in Retail.

It doesn’t matter if you consider LFD/LFR the “exact same thing” lfr wasnt part of wotlk and never will be. LFD was and more than likely will get brought into classic during ICC phase to align with when it originally released.

The intent was to automate grouping because the player base complained about how long it took to form groups, just like they do now. It IS a needed function just as it was needed when it was introduced. Automating the grouping process solved the problems that the community complained about for years. It doesn’t matter what retail’s meta became, wotlk isn’t retail, game features had different purposes in wotlk. You can’t compare retail to wotlk in any way shape or form because they aren’t even remotely the same. Just because they made heroics trivial and meaningless in retail doesn’t mean they are trivial and meaningless in wotlk.

TL TR: LFD was created for a reason and it worked and solved the problems it was created for. Tossing it out because of your irrational fear that the game will just be like retail is illogical.

[Warmane-nazjatar]

@Dnerve-grobbulus

The intent was to automate grouping because the player base complained about how long it took to form groups, just like they do now.

This was not the original intent, if you played WoTLK back in the day you’d know they had LFR in the pipeline for a while and they wanted to turn WoW more casual friendly along with the introduction of the WoW Store which is why Activision was taking control of WoW in some ways.

[Dnerve-grobbulus]

@Warmane-nazjatar

This was not the original intent, if you played WoTLK back in the day you’d know they had LFR in the pipeline for a while and they wanted to turn WoW more casual friendly along with the introduction of the WoW Store which is why Activision was taking control of WoW in some ways.

activision wasnt even in the picture for almost 8 years later. I did play Wotlk the first time through. Did you? The constant complaining about never being able to find groups? the complaints of sitting in town spamming for groups because we DID NOT have a LFG bulletin board? the LFG system that LFD replaced is just as functional as the one we have in tbc right now (which isn’t) These complaints started in VANILLA which is why the LFG system was made for tbc. The complaints continued through all of TBC and wotlk until finally they made a new system to replace LFG.

Trying to say LFR was in the pipeline is kinda silly. LFR only even became a thing BECAUSE LFD was so successful. LFR didnt release until more than half way through cata, they didn’t even start working on LFR until the realized how much of a success LFD was.

[Axxi-faerlina]

@Ziryus-pagle

It definitely was not the case in Wrath for RDF, there was no step up from heroic dungeons.

Which, I clearly stated in my post:

@Axxi-faerlina

Sure Dungeon Finder was first introduced during Wrath of the Lich King, when Heroics 5-man dungeons were end-game dungeons

The design intent is much clearer now, in Retail. And made even clearer by the decision to not include Dungeon Finder in WotLK Classic.

---

@Dnerve-grobbulus

lfr wasnt part of wotlk and never will be.

I didn’t say it was, but at the same time, never say never! It might be in a future Season of Wrath

@Dnerve-grobbulus

LFD was and more than likely will get brought into classic during ICC phase to align with when it originally released.

More than likely? Maybe. I’m not so sure, but it might make sense for them to add a Dungeon Finder at some point, but perhaps not. There was some mention of trying to make Heroics relevant content during phase progression, and as per the design intent of Dungeon Finder, it might not fit with end-game Dungeons, and might not fit with the Classic leveling experience, so where would it fit within the intended design of Classic?

@Dnerve-grobbulus

It IS a needed function just as it was needed when it was introduced. Automating the grouping process solved the problems that the community complained about for years.

But if that’s “the problem” with Classic for someone, they can simply play Retail, which solves all these problems, and solving these problems lead to people asking for Classic.

I mean, I get where you’re coming from, and I’m not anti-Dungeon Finder for Wrath Classic, fwiw… I just don’t think you’re making a relevant point.

@Dnerve-grobbulus

It doesn’t matter what retail’s meta became, wotlk isn’t retail, game features had different purposes in wotlk.

It absolutely matters, as there have been so many tweaks that have been required to make some of the changes that came about after Vanilla actually work relatively well, such as I suspect we’ll see when we see all the complaints about Dual Spec’s shortcomings, much of which have been solved in Retail…

Retail (at least if we’re assuming that Retail is only the current patch of the most progressed version of the game) is also the most progressed display of the design intent.

@Dnerve-grobbulus

You can’t compare retail to wotlk in any way shape or form because they aren’t even remotely the same

Sure I can. Wrath was Retail 3.0 at the time it was introduced. And sure, the game was still attracting new players and the playerbase was growing at the time, but a lot of Vanilla fans also complained about TBC and Wrath and had quit because they couldn’t stomach the drastic changes (or maybe just because they couldn’t play 40+ hours a week for years and years — we’ll never know!).

@Dnerve-grobbulus

Tossing it out because of your irrational fear that the game will just be like retail is illogical.

Oh, this is an interesting assumption. As stated above, I’m not against Dungeon Finder for Wrath Classic, I’m merely disagreeing with the points you seem to be trying to make.

[Kerpz-moon-guard]

Sorry, your tank had to leave in the middle of a nexus run don’t worry you just have to wait 20 mins to find one that wants to only do HALF the run and then wait for them to run to the dungeon but at least you’ll make friends while you wait.

[Warmane-nazjatar]

@Dnerve-grobbulus

activision wasnt even in the picture for almost 8 years later.

The merger happened in '08 when WoTLK was at it’s peak, again you seem like someone who wasn’t around back in the day but you got all your info from Wrath from forums and videos on the topic.

@Dnerve-grobbulus

The constant complaining about never being able to find groups? the complaints of sitting in town spamming for groups because we DID NOT have a LFG bulletin board?

This did not exist to the extent that you are trying to make it out to be, I feel like you are conflating your experience with TBC currently with how people were back then.

Back then the audience was completely different, they did no like RMT, they would rage at the idea of a WoW token and no one even liked the Activision merger and the Blizz store being introduced.

One of the most pivotal changes happened with the introduction of LFD as WoW being the #1 MMO shifted away from the traditional MMO and became more of an easy/casual to use game that had some MMO elements in it and you can see the results of it over the years with their published subscriber count.

[Drain-windseeker]

Changing your sockpuppet’s name doesn’t gain you any credibility.

[Dnerve-grobbulus]

@Axxi-faerlina

But if that’s “the problem” with Classic for someone, they can simply play Retail, which solves all these problems, and solving these problems lead to people asking for Classic.

If we took a poll right now I garentee you more than 80% of the player base doesnt even run dungeons anymore because of the headache of forming a group. that isn’t a “go play retail then” problem. That is a massive game design problem where they left the player base to take charge to see the content. Problem is people in general don’t follow that role in society. most people are followers and not leaders, they don’t want to form their own group, they want to join them and let someone else do all the work and ride the coat tails. LFD solved that issue and automated the socially flawed design of forcing the community to do something that is inherently against their nature.

[Warmane-nazjatar]

@Dnerve-grobbulus

If we took a poll right now I garentee you more than 80% of the player base doesnt even run dungeons anymore because of the headache of forming a group.

Them why weren’t you asking for this in Vanilla/TBC if it’s so detrimental to the game’s population? Seems like Classic is doing fine playerwise so far without LFD.

[Dnerve-grobbulus]

@Warmane-nazjatar

One of the most pivotal changes happened with the introduction of LFD as WoW being the #1 MMO shifted away from the traditional MMO and became more of an easy/casual to use game that had some MMO elements in it and you can see the results of it over the years with their published subscriber count.

Their subscriber count continued to climb after the release of LFD all the way through to Cata where it peaked at it’s all time subscriber count high. There was actually about a 500k spike with the release of LFD patch in wotlk which was the biggest spike during that expansion. Could be attributed to ICC release as well or the fact that people got to make alts and spam dungeons to do the things they loved again without the headache.

[Warmane-nazjatar]

@Dnerve-grobbulus

Their subscriber count continued to climb after the release of LFD all the way through to Cata where it peaked at it’s all time subscriber count high.

I’ve seen data that confirms what you say but also data that says the opposite and both are coming from their own valid sources so it’s hard to say for sure so I won’t comment on that.

But what I will say is that WoW has continually lost subscribers and love from it’s original fans over making the game incredibly casual, it made Retail become very lonely and very low social interaction which is what they are not wanting in Classic.

[Bloomsdaylol-hakkar]

bell at the bottom of the thread > Change from normal / tracking to Muted.

youre welcome everyone.

[Ziryus-pagle]

@Axxi-faerlina

The design intent is much clearer now, in Retail. And made even clearer by the decision to not include Dungeon Finder in WotLK Classic.

Except it’s not as they aren’t retuning dungeons so that RDF won’t work for them. We’re getting the same dungeons as we had in wrath where RDF worked fine and that will drop the same loot that was also fine for their difficulty.

[Dnerve-grobbulus]

@Warmane-nazjatar

But what I will say is that WoW has continually lost subscribers and love from it’s original fans over making the game incredibly casual, it made Retail become very lonely and very low social interaction which is what they are not wanting in Classic.

That may very well be true. But blaming LFD for that is nonsense. The blame would be more aligned with the dev team and their approach going further. LFD by itself was a wonderful tool that solved a big flaw in game design. What was added over the course of the next 10 years is what lead to the downfall, not LFD.

[Warmane-nazjatar]

@Dnerve-grobbulus

What was added over the course of the next 10 years is what lead to the downfall, not LFD.

LFD was the start of it, it was at the exact time of their Activision merger which everyone hated back in the day and not long after the merger they made a series of big decisions like adding in an in-game store after promising they won’t monetize past a subscription all the way to RDF/LFR.

LFD did solve a problem but it created more as well and what it created was a path of convenience that Blizzard took too far.

The blame isn’t solely on LFD but it did give them an excuse to create on that convenience factor.

[Axxi-faerlina]

@Dnerve-grobbulus

If we took a poll right now I garentee you more than 80% of the player base doesnt even run dungeons anymore because of the headache of forming a group. that isn’t a “go play retail then” problem. That is a massive game design problem where they left the player base to take charge to see the content.

Can you give me the precise details of your garentee [sic]? I don’t think it holds any weight.

Of course you are entitled to your own opinion as I am mine, so I’m not trying to attack you as a person, nor your opinion, but I wouldn’t be comfortable betting on your opinion here being accurate.

We don’t know the percentage of players that do or do not run dungeons currently. I suspect that a lot of people who play the Classic series are adults with responsibilities, families, and jobs, who are able to spend time here and there when new content drops to gear up, and farm some items, but mostly only have time to raid log for scheduled content, which fits into their busy weekly routines.

Of course, I could be wrong too!

Oh, also we don’t know how much of a time save Dungeon Finder would be. I do remember spamming heroics using Dungeon Finder during the original Wrath, and would be happy to do so again, but I don’t think I’d be happy to queue as DPS! But I would love to see what the queue times would be now.

@Dnerve-grobbulus

Problem is people in general don’t follow that role in society. most people are followers and not leaders, they don’t want to form their own group, they want to join them and let someone else do all the work and ride the coat tails. LFD solved that issue and automated the socially flawed design of forcing the community to do something that is inherently against their nature.

This, imo, is one of the best points in favor of Dungeon Finder. It’s generally quite user-friendly for those who may not want to take a lead role in forming a group, for whatever reason, and I think that’s a fair point to make.

@Ziryus-pagle

We’re getting the same dungeons as we had in wrath where RDF worked fine and that will drop the same loot that was also fine for their difficulty.

Are we? I’m interested in how they are going to make the dungeons give relevant awards during all phases… Perhaps they will just be the same, but perhaps not! We’ll see, I guess

[Ziryus-pagle]

@Axxi-faerlina

Are we? I’m interested in how they are going to make the dungeons give relevant awards during all phases… Perhaps they will just be the same, but perhaps not! We’ll see, I guess

Of course that’s a further change from the original wrath as well.

And the heroics at launch will be tuned as they were at this point which were perfectly fine in RDF and which dropped loot appropriate for their difficulty. The whole excuse that blizzard has for RDF not working for mythic dungeons is they are tuned harder which let’s them drop better loot, that won’t apply(and realistically until you get up to 10+ mythic they would be fine in RDF as well)

[Tesalyn-pagle]

when will this guy get banned already?