I see people post that if they retune raids they would have to retune classes. Why? Since we're starting with presumably 1.12 talents it's going to make early raids far easier. But why would they have to mess with classes if they retune early raids? We already have our "buff" so to speak with 1.12 talents. So then you just buff the raids to match that. Someone please tell me if I'm genuinely missing something because from where I stand retuning raids won't lead to changes in classes.
What you're missing is that if you retune raids to fit what some people want out classic you also can't dismiss out of hand retuning classes as well to fit what some other people want out of classic.
You don't need to retune classes for retuned raids, but the people that want class changes latch onto it as a point of argument.
The raids would be retuned to maintain the original difficulty before later changes made them easier. Class changes are still not needed because they will be exactly as balanced as they were in vanilla.
06/23/2018 06:42 AMPosted by ZiryusWhat you're missing is that if you retune raids to fit what some people want out classic you also can't dismiss out of hand retuning classes as well to fit what some other people want out of classic.
The raids would be retuned to maintain the original difficulty before later changes made them easier. Class changes are still not needed because they will be exactly as balanced as they were in vanilla.
not even a nerf to shield slam's threat generation, which I'll point out that much of the nochanges crowd advocates for?06/23/2018 06:56 AMPosted by TastymanwichThe raids would be retuned to maintain the original difficulty before later changes made them easier. Class changes are still not needed because they will be exactly as balanced as they were in vanilla.
I personally think that that wouldn't be enough
anyway, to respond to the OP; they don't have to rebalance classes around retuning raids(making them harder to clear), and its not worth doing when you could buff the raids instead
if you'd want to do class balance, a more worthwhile reason, which many think is necessary, would be to balance the raid performances of specs of classes in comparison to other specs of the same primary role, utility considered
06/23/2018 06:56 AMPosted by TastymanwichThe raids would be retuned to maintain the original difficulty before later changes made them easier. Class changes are still not needed because they will be exactly as balanced as they were in vanilla.
No you want them tuned to something other than the difficulty they were tuned to in vanilla. If you want to create some weird hybrid of things that never existed in vanilla that's fine but at that point you also have to ask why not make some other changes as well.
06/23/2018 07:21 AMPosted by Ziryus06/23/2018 06:56 AMPosted by TastymanwichThe raids would be retuned to maintain the original difficulty before later changes made them easier. Class changes are still not needed because they will be exactly as balanced as they were in vanilla.
No you want them tuned to something other than the difficulty they were tuned to in vanilla. If you want to create some weird hybrid of things that never existed in vanilla that's fine but at that point you also have to ask why not make some other changes as well.
I thought you were for retuning raids? Or maybe I'm mistaking.
Zyrus is for whatever the nochange crowd is not. There has been a shift towards raid retuning because of the developer update, so now Zyrus is trolling with the opposite viewpoint.06/23/2018 08:22 AMPosted by Arkraider06/23/2018 07:21 AMPosted by Ziryus...
No you want them tuned to something other than the difficulty they were tuned to in vanilla. If you want to create some weird hybrid of things that never existed in vanilla that's fine but at that point you also have to ask why not make some other changes as well.
I thought you were for retuning raids? Or maybe I'm mistaking.
06/23/2018 09:27 AMPosted by SwitzyZyrus is for whatever the nochange crowd is not. There has been a shift towards raid retuning because of the developer update, so now Zyrus is trolling with the opposite viewpoint.06/23/2018 08:22 AMPosted by Arkraider...
I thought you were for retuning raids? Or maybe I'm mistaking.
The no change crowd stopped being the no change crowd as soon as they admitted they don't want 1.12.
hopefully without the sheild slam change from 1.11, which trivialezed aggro management and made classes able to go full throttle on do, which vastly increased the percentage gap in dps rankings in a raid.06/23/2018 06:56 AMPosted by TastymanwichYou don't need to retune classes for retuned raids, but the people that want class changes latch onto it as a point of argument.06/23/2018 06:42 AMPosted by ZiryusWhat you're missing is that if you retune raids to fit what some people want out classic you also can't dismiss out of hand retuning classes as well to fit what some other people want out of classic.
The raids would be retuned to maintain the original difficulty before later changes made them easier. Class changes are still not needed because they will be exactly as balanced as they were in vanilla.
Edit: to clarify percentage gap being things like fury warrior do 50% more dps than a feral druid, this in turn is what caused many hybrids in their damage specs to become unviable.
Their raw damage was lower to begin with, but now the other dps could go leaps and bounds ahead because aggro was a non factor.
Aggro management was what kept any dps spec viable, because almost no one could go full throttle.
Vanilla never started on patch 1.12 so how would that be a vanilla experience?06/23/2018 09:32 AMPosted by Ziryus06/23/2018 09:27 AMPosted by Switzy...Zyrus is for whatever the nochange crowd is not. There has been a shift towards raid retuning because of the developer update, so now Zyrus is trolling with the opposite viewpoint.
The no change crowd stopped being the no change crowd as soon as they admitted they don't want 1.12.
They want retuning for raids because they aren't hard enough. Then they want retuning for specs because they aren't on top of the meters. The whole situation is not important. The only discussion about raids should be debuff slots.
06/24/2018 11:24 AMPosted by VivixVanilla never started on patch 1.12 so how would that be a vanilla experience?06/23/2018 09:32 AMPosted by Ziryus...
The no change crowd stopped being the no change crowd as soon as they admitted they don't want 1.12.
It also didn't start in 2018 or later, so how would that be the vanilla experience?
Raid retune = means retune classes to match it since one side has Paladin other shaman. It won’t be Classic anymore.
People bicker over the most pointless things.
06/23/2018 07:06 AMPosted by Tarregornot even a nerf to shield slam's threat generation, which I'll point out that much of the nochanges crowd advocates for?
The difference is 'select between different parts of vanilla' and 'arbitrary changes that were never part of vanilla'.
No one wants Shield Slam to just have its threat reduced arbitrarily. We want to use the pre-1.11 version of Shield Slam. It's not the same thing as just changing it.
06/23/2018 09:32 AMPosted by Ziryus06/23/2018 09:27 AMPosted by Switzy...Zyrus is for whatever the nochange crowd is not. There has been a shift towards raid retuning because of the developer update, so now Zyrus is trolling with the opposite viewpoint.
The no change crowd stopped being the no change crowd as soon as they admitted they don't want 1.12.
I think we all wanted to start at 1.1 and progress to 1.12 but blizzard decided to have the talents set to 1.12 since it is the most balanced. The reason why private servers picked 1.12. Now that blizzard pretty much decided no changes by recent news, the no changes crowd is split between changes that happened in vanilla and pro changes are asking for things like retuning and class balancing because MC and BwL will be easy. These changes are not needed.
06/24/2018 12:17 PMPosted by Aryxymaraki06/23/2018 07:06 AMPosted by Tarregornot even a nerf to shield slam's threat generation, which I'll point out that much of the nochanges crowd advocates for?
The difference is 'select between different parts of vanilla' and 'arbitrary changes that were never part of vanilla'.
No one wants Shield Slam to just have its threat reduced arbitrarily. We want to use the pre-1.11 version of Shield Slam. It's not the same thing as just changing it.
This whole, keep/omit thing is so dangerous when there is a scale. I mean, can you provide an abundance of evidence that a pre-1.11 shield slam is capable of completing all Naxx bosses without cheesing any of the fights?
Because if you can't then the discussion has to be had about whats the lowest threat you can have on shield slam and still reasonably complete Naxx. That is not arbitrary.
06/24/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Malgrinn06/23/2018 09:32 AMPosted by Ziryus...
The no change crowd stopped being the no change crowd as soon as they admitted they don't want 1.12.
I think we all wanted to start at 1.1 and progress to 1.12 but blizzard decided to have the talents set to 1.12 since it is the most balanced. The reason why private servers picked 1.12. Now that blizzard pretty much decided no changes by recent news, the no changes crowd is split between changes that happened in vanilla and pro changes are asking for things like retuning and class balancing because MC and BwL will be easy. These changes are not needed.
Neither is asking for some weird hybrid of stuff from 1.12 and stuff from future patches. But as long as we're asking for something that was never in vanilla might as well include class balance changes.
06/23/2018 09:32 AMPosted by Ziryus<span class="truncated">...</span>Zyrus is for whatever the nochange crowd is not. There has been a shift towards raid retuning because of the developer update, so now Zyrus is trolling with the opposite viewpoint.
The no change crowd stopped being the no change crowd as soon as they admitted they don't want 1.12.
I'm more leaning towards no raid-retuning right now. If it's gonna be easier than intended, (or than it was originally,) so be it. Naxx will be where it should be at. And overall I haven't ever really felt a desire to go back to experience the gearing and pain of my other MMO raid tiers, even if I went to go back and experience the content again, I definitely don't miss the weeks of lockouts and slowly grinding up gear.
<span class="truncated">...</span>
The no change crowd stopped being the no change crowd as soon as they admitted they don't want 1.12.
I'm more leaning towards no raid-retuning right now. If it's gonna be easier than intended, (or than it was originally,) so be it. Naxx will be where it should be at. And overall I haven't ever really felt a desire to go back to experience the gearing and pain of my other MMO raid tiers, even if I went to go back and experience the content again, I definitely don't miss the weeks of lockouts and slowly grinding up gear.
I guess that's the difference in menality. I sure as heck don't want to raid of PvP again, even if they paid me. But I still want to know I'm playing the original game. The original scholo/strath, etc. When I walk into Org and see people in epics, I want to know that they're the ones that put in the time and work and that I wasn't.
i.e. it really isn't so much about me and what I plan on doing in game as it is about the game itself.