Can we go back to the time when raid comp and class ability dictated raid success instead of having players jump through mechanics hoops in order defeat bosses please? Raids have become puzzle games instead of tests of players class knowledge/skill and proper raid comp.
Use two class abilities, then jump to the left, run in a circle, run back, use two more abilities, then click something while facing away from the raid, another class ability then run to another spot and stand still of 10 seconds, etc etc etc is silly. Why even have class abilities if we are just going to have to jump through hoops and play silly games that have no contextual relation to the boss?
Doesn’t raid comp matter in Mythic raids? I thought that’s why people brought DH tanks for their 5% magic dmg buff, warriors for shout, raid buffs, ect. Lock portals are also used pretty often.
To add another perspective, I quite enjoy the “puzzle” nature of WoW raids. It’s not something new and it’s something I find very compelling. Not only is there personal learning to overcome the mechanics, you also have to orchestrate it reasonably well with 10-30 other people (depending on difficulty). I find achieving success as a group to be extraordinarily meaningful
I also do think that classes, played well, contribute greatly to the success of raid encounters. Knowing how all your buttons work can often make fights much easier on a class by class basis.
Unless you’re a rogue, then you’re just there to stab things!
he does not raid outside lfr/normal (so not raiding) just look at the achieves (account wide) dude who has no idea what he is talking about complaining about something he knows nothing about. Class stacking is still a big thing
How do you consider 8/10 H CN “not raiding”? I’ve raided enough throughout 17 years to know the difference between how raiding worked before in the introduction of puzzle based mechanics vs raid comp/class ability based mechanics.
The antics of modern raiding mechanisms do not highlight or showcase player ability to master class mechanics as a necessity to complete raids. It’s night/day different between UBRS/Molten Core of 2004 and CN of today.
Rather than make childish accusations based on assumptions, prove me wrong?
True story.
And there is nothing wrong with having them in game. But to completely order an entire raid around these mechanics while throwing away the old school boss events that instead relied solely upon raid comp and character ability skill is what I’m getting at. Why must it be one or the other?
exactly if your hardstuck at 8/10 heroic you really cant call it raiding. Also class ability or mechanics in mc? yeah I guess frostbolt, frostbolt, frostbolt sure showed class mastery
Oh I don’t think it needs to be, but I also don’t think it is. I guess it depends on what you’re looking for.
Are you wanting to have a fight where the only way to succeed is to have a specific class with a specific ability that can counter something a boss does, or are you looking to utilize class mechanics in creative and useful ways to overcome challenges?
If the former, the game doesn’t really work like that as much anymore. Personally I think that’s a good thing… I agree with the mantra Blizzard had several expansions ago of “bring the player, not the class”. This agrees with me because I tend to play with the same general group of friends and it’s a bummer when we are missing something in our comp that’s required just for the sake of being required. Still, if that’s what you’re looking for, both Classic Era and Classic TBC exist (and are included in your subscription) which are more along that style of play. Both are super compelling, though heads up, it remains to be seen as to whether or not Classic Era is going to survive or not.
If the latter, this exists. Not as much this raid tier, but it definitely has in past tiers. I know as a Monk Tank in both 8.0 and 8.1, there were some fights that I could make use of my Purifying Brew to mitigate some extremely heavy hits, almost for free, and some other fight mechanics that I could creatively use my teleport in super useful ways. These options exist, but they aren’t required. Clever players can find them and doing so will make fights go more smoothly, but not finding them doesn’t render the fight impossible.
If the Warlock you’re posting on is your main, there’s some really helpful things you can do with your… Demonic Gateway? The teleport between two points thingy. Super useful on Phase 1 Sire, and we also got great mileage out of it on the Dance boss. So much so that I just wouldn’t want to do those fights without a Warlock. Though the P1 Sire thing is almost as good if you use a Druid and Stampeding Roar (or other group movement skills). It’s just a lot easier with a lock teleport since you can DPS right to the wire until you have to move for the red stuff.
It’s raiding, but experience that low this late in a raid tier doesn’t give you much credibility to be critiquing the nuances of raid design.
And if you’ve raided at comparably low levels over the past 17 years, it doesn’t help build that credibility.
Make a list of these “antics” and I’m sure I can find many of them in raid fights from previous tiers. While the occasional “Patchwerk” fight is fine for a gear check here and there, fights that are just target dummies for people to hump the meters isn’t fun raiding at all. Learning to maximize output while handling an array of sometimes overlapping mechanics is what makes raiding interesting.
Based on your raid history, I’m guessing that the bosses you kill happen late in the tier, and you are carried by better players while you ignore mechanics and generally hinder your group. You don’t notice this because the boss dies, and the better players just laugh to themselves later about the “quality” of some of the people they carried who didn’t have any idea what they were doing. There are some fights in CN with mechanics where you can’t just sit in the back and hump the meter while better players kill the boss for you, so now you’re angry about something that has really been this way for over a decade. This is, of course, speculation, so maybe you’ll have some relevant raid experience to share. And I’d like to reiterate the need to see a list of mechanics you find objectionable and why.
You have 8/10 heroic from one run. We can see how many times you downed each boss. Besides heroic, you ran normal only a handful of times up to Inerva. You are not a raider. You may have been in the past, but not anymore.
The only fight that even vaguely fits your description is council, which most agree is a step too far, has a boring gimmick, and doesn’t make much sense.
Everything else is learning to do damage and handle mechanics at the same time, something every spec is more than capable of doing.
I just… I don’t understand why people want to have more patchwerk raid bosses, I think less dumb gimmicks is probably a good idea (Council) but there’s nothing wrong mechanically with the things Inerva, Hungering, Shriek, Artificer, Huntsman, Sludgefist, and even Sire ask you to do.
Because they simply aren’t engaging as they were in Vanilla and TBC.
This I get but isn’t WoW supposed to be a massively multi-player online game? Where you progress through content within a community of friends? Isn’t that the point? So if you are missing a raid component you go out and meet that person and bring them in to your circle of friends?
As far as going to Classic, well, paying for content I’ve already done a million times isn’t appealing to me. I’ve been there/done that. I pay for new content. But new content shouldn’t mean new meta’s every patch in order to cover what I think is a lack of creativity.
Your ideas a for utilizing warlock and druid abilities only serve to defeat mechanics that aren’t logical relevant to the encounter though. They are mechanics thrown in to the event to make it more difficult to dps the boss. And that is the core of my issue. I’m looking for an event that relies not on my avoiding random mechanics. I want boss fights where players have to defeat the boss itself. Floors falling out from under me and sections of the ground being “death pools” is just silly to me and a bit overused, don’t you agree?
This couldn’t be farther from my point. Patchwerk required no use of individual class abilities. It was a gear check. I honestly don’t see a difference between Sire, Sludgefist, etc and Council. They’re all silly “gimmicks”, Council is just wrapped in sillier gift wrapping than the others.
These two fights do better than others in my opinion, but fall far short of the idea of utilizing the wide array of calss abilities that used to be required to pass a raid. building on this, if perhaps instead of using silly “gimmick” mechanics, each boss fight required a greater reliance on specific class abilities I might be more interested in raiding.
While I understand what you are basing your discussion on, you are assuming based on what you see in the armory. The armory is broken and doesn’t accurately reflect peoples raid experience as it is missing a lot of people information on raid history.
You are also assuming I am “raid stuck” at 8/10 which I am not. Now that we have those two items out of the way, let’s talk about some real ideas you brought up because this is exactly why I wanted to have this discussion in an open forum:
Let’s compare older content with newer content and examine how class ability and raid comp was required to win the event rather than puzzle type mechanics.
The entire raid of UBRS is my first example. UBRS was entirely unique in that it wasnt simply “clear some trash with zerg antics and aoe’s to get to each boss” then jump through hoops while slowly dps’ing the boss. The trash packs had to be handled properly with the use of druids and hunters to pull individual mobs, mages cc’ing, and off tanks utilized. Yes, the trash itself was an intelligently designed, relevant part of defeating the UBRS raid encounter. Nothing in UBRS was arbitrarily tossed in as a time sink.
Where do we see this sort of design lately?
Huntsman is really the first and last time in several expansions where we’ve encountered a boss mechanic where a boss event is logically designed to use class ability and team work to actually fight a boss. Most every other mechanic in CN is designed as an obstacle to dps’ing the boss down. And even then the fight really only relies on hunters and druids cc abilities while dps focuses on downing the bears and bosses.
Now as I see it, this drifting towards puzzle type fights goes hand in hand with the trend of dumbing down of class abilities and specs and the loss of utility of several specs. But that is a different discussion. Or is it?
Consider that a raid force of boomkins can defeat CN using convoke on each boss. I think it sums up perfectly my point?
Puzzle mechanics are challenging and fun (with the exception in my opinion of the original Magtheridon event). There has always been, to a degree, puzzle mechanics. But I think they have become too much the meta instead of simply being an added obstacle, spice if you will to make the encounter more interesting.
Yep, even besides buffs, you absolutely need a certain number of stun immunities/breaks for artificer. He also basically requires everyone to have some sort of movement speed increase/blink on mythic since you keep the portals far for the whole fight.
For those who don’t know, each phase is progressively harder on artificer since he never stops doing mechanics like he does in heroic and lower. So you’ll end up with a nightmare of having to do seeds during the suck with ghosts (not sure if you can avoid this scenario by controlling DPS). The mechanics are a bit weaker individually on mythic, but the combination of mechanics makes it tricky.
Another notable one with class requirements is Kael. A MW monk is probably not required, but you really want at least one holy priest for guardian spirit and boomies for innvervate.
It’s not like any one person can do all things, it’s just that there’s some general overlap between classes. It still feels like class utility matters, especially in dungeons. There also isn’t some overlap… I think someone mentioned above that DH are the only option for the 5% magic damage buff and monks are the only option for the 5% physical one.
Classic comes with the subscription you’re already paying. If you’re posting on these forums, you don’t have to pay anything extra for it. I wouldn’t write it off so quickly… it’s actually a lot of fun to go back and play something you haven’t played meaningfully in many, many years. You do what feels right for you, but I’m just letting you know that option is there and it’s actually pretty fun. Personally, I enjoy what both versions of the game offer me, and play both of them
It’s always been like that though. I mean, even the example you gave in UBRS and what sounded like how you deal with the last boss by having a player kite the boss down the hall while people deal with the trash… that’s just one strategy. You don’t have to have that… and I’ve seen both a hunter and a mage do it very successfully. Heck, I’ve even done it as a Druid before, though it was dicey.
About the only instance of a single class being effectively required is any time you needed tranq shot on a hunter before they spread it out a bit. That wasn’t really compelling gameplay, it was just “have a hunter, then continue to stand there and smash buttons while you win.”
If that’s what you want in a game that’s cool, but do keep in mind that WoW has evolved into something that requires a bit higher of a skill cap to play, and that’s something many of us enjoy. I know I’d really dislike it if WoW went back to tank n’ spank fights that didn’t really require any player interaction at the gameplay level, with the lack of challenge offset by having strict and rigid class requirements.
UBRS was my example because it demonstrates a scenario where utilization of class abilities was essential to progression while offering variety in which class could be used rather than make the raid entirely dependent upon a specific class to perform that requirement. I druid pulled UBRS in early 2004 once we realized the dragonkin could be “slept”. Far more efficient than hunter pulls and trapping.
But UBRS isn’t perfect obviously. Hence the need to evolve the meta. Also a point in bringing it up. Gruuls Lair is the next quick, off the top of my head example, of how they progressed the meta without allowing puzzle mechanics to dominate the meta and become the be all/end all of boss fight conquest.
I’m not here to announce to the world that adding puzzle mechanics to scenarios is wrong or inherently evil. My stance is that I think it has become too much the meta with too little regard for class abilities being key to success.
RIO is pretty accurate when it comes to logging kills. Which is taken from Blizzards API.
The point stands that you have 1 raid experience at Heroic and 0 experience in Mythic. You are not in a position to say that raid comp doesn’t matter and that its all about jumping hoops.
Mythic raiding simply increases the number of hoops to jump through. It doesn’t change the dynamic of use of individual, class specific ability requirements vs gimmicks to over come.
This invalidates your point that any perceived lack of mythic experience confers lack of insight.
