Who here really just raids for vault loot?
After countless raid clears and absolutely zero loot drops that are worth anything, I came to the conclusion that one of the very few reasons why I raid anymore is for the vault loot.
Blizz is horrible at finding a middle ground. There is, on one side, where gearing is too easy. Now, however, we are on the complete opposite where the time spent in raids is completely no worth the horrifically low chance at gear.
For the vault!
You don’t got mythic or heroic clears or kills.
As such your not even raiding for vault loot your vault loot should be from m plus where a normal raider will get massively higher weekly chest ilvl than from raiding. Esp as you do have a 10 proving that:
I only need the last 2 of the heroic raid but have to do basically a full clear for a chance at 220 in my chest. Sucks I don’t want to do Heroic anymore lol
You missed my point, which was that raid drops are abysmal and that the only reliable raid drops are with the vault.
Yea, where I am at gear wise m+ is my only true option for gear at this point. I am second team because of my schedule so I don’t think I’ll see heroic too soon, which is fine. But it doesn’t matter if it’s normal or mythic, you cant reliably gear through raids anymore.
Yea, I get that. I dont wanna run 10 m+ either lol
Seems like Blizzard expects everyone to participate in all forms of content. I imagine that if you map out the drop rate based on participation in PvP, Raiding, M+, World Quests and related events like World Bosses and Callings, you’d probably see an expected drop rate that most players would be satisfied with.
Skipping any of those is like skipping food groups in your meals. You’re expecting to get all your nutrition from a few limited sources.
I’m not a fan of that design approach, since I’d prefer to focus on the few types of content that I most enjoy.
I saw a spreadsheet with drop percentages and time it takes somewhere, but I don’t remember where. They break up loot drop per minute if I remember correctly and it was like .12% for m+ while it was like .0004% for raids. It was disgusting to see how low of a percentage it was for raids. Even pvp was like .25% or so.
I am a pretty casual player id think. I raid once a week, complete 1-4 m+ weekly, and I complete my renown and torgast weekly. Outside of the time it takes to do those things, I dont have any extra time. Kids, degree, ect… are more important.
That sounds highly bias and not likely to be accurate. As eg m+ untimed keys timed key and time to get into groups all are highly depended on the group. Same with raids time to kill, time between kills. time on trash all are highly subjective. Even using the same players in the comps woulden’t give a non bias comp.
If using avg of large numbers might get a idea but even than doesn’t paint a realistic picture as this is a mmo so pugging all the time is not really the intended method of play so the large amount of data for pugs would toss the pool off.
Your %'s also if ment to be the drop %s even by the min are just flat out wrong, at 0.004% for raids you would not see a item across the raid even over a month on avg assuming 2 hour clears. But you see 1-2 items a week from a full clear per player, this puts the drop rate around 10-15%. Prob closer to 10% but don’t got large amounts of data to get a accurate %. To give an idea a 0.004% drop chance per min would mean you would expect a drop around the 60000 min mark, or expect a drop once every 2500 hours. Obv that not the case. Note that is 0.004 not 0.0004 you said that is a much smaller number and as such even less loot.
If that number is count time as in drops per week and using a week as the time line that’s a really bad way to compare and basically worthless as a comp. As that would be like saying you expect people to do m+ 24/7 which is possible but not for raids making it not a fair comp. Even than the numbers are wrong as that would be saying one avg one item every 2 weeks from raid but if raiding 24/7 should be using 3 raid clears as thats easy to do within that time (disregarded diff). But yet a single raid clear should give you an item or two on avg. Again using 0.004 not the 0.0004 number you said.
Eg I broke down my own personal data between raid and m+ and in fact per min raid gives more loot than m+ and of a higher ilvl on avg, it was vary close to each other in loot amount. But m+ gives you unlimited amount per week. This is disregarding wait times eg time to fourm groups or finding a group as those are not part of said content, while highly bias esp based on role.
Spending hours in raid and getting nothing but 35 anima per boss feels really bad.
I agree it makes raiding so draining because you just know you wont get anything. Even when I do get something I dont get excited because the dread of getting nothing outweighs actually getting something. Or if you get loot you dont need there is your chance at other bosses
Word. And as a reminder, world bosses give 250. ( ¬¬)
I don’t see how that’s possibly valid.
My guild clears normal (which we’ve run the last few weeks just to finish off the skip and get peeps that were gone over xmas their legendaries) in roughly 2.5 hours, and that’s even with the occasional wipe as we deal with some of our bench peeps learning the fight. Each boss drops 0.15 items per person, on average (3 out of 20), which is 1.5 items per person for 10 bosses. That’s 0.01 items per minute per person.
For M+, it depends on where you’re landing on the timer. For a timed run, we can presume an average of 30-35 minutes (since all of the instances have a timer of between 30 and 41 minutes). You get 0.4 items per person, so that’s ~0.013 items per person per minute. For a failed run, presumed average 45 minutes, it’d be only ~0.0044 items per minute.
In order to get 0.12 items per minute from M+, you’d need to be completing the run in approximately 3.33 minutes total. If that’s 0.12% drop rate per minute, that only adds up to the known 40% drop rate for a timed key if the run took 333.3 minutes (~5.5 hours), which is clearly not valid, or timing the key. Raiding being 0.0004% would add up to the known 15% drop rate per kill if each boss took 37,500 minutes, or roughly 27 days.
So clearly either your memory is faulty or the original data is. In either case, the drops per time spent between timed keys and relatively efficient raid clears is similar. Progression raid nights, of course, are going to be much much slower, but so is failing keys (ie. a regular occurrence as you try to push keys higher and higher).
Edit: looking at it closer, 1.2% drop rate per minutes would make sense for M+. That’s effectively 0.012 items per minute per person, which is nearly equal to what I calculated. So that value may simply be off by an order of magnitude.
However, the raid one simply doesn’t make sense. The best I can come up with for that is presuming it actual means 0.004 items per minute, or 0.4% drop rate per minute. However, that would only be valid if clearing the raid took 2.5 times as long as my value, meaning over 6 hours to clear the 10 bosses. That’s not farm content, that’s progression.
Yea, like I said, i was just trying to remember what it had said, not withstanding the specific numbers to drops. So do not overfocus on the percentages but rather the relationship in proportion to gear drops.
There is no “bias” in what I said. My argument has clearly been that, simplified, gearing through raid drops is absolutely the wrong way to go.
There is no shortage of posts and experiences of people going through full clears without a single piece of gear dropping. Idk what math some people are doing, but you do NOT get the same amount of loot in raid as in m+ and/or pvp.
Which was why I also pointed out that the numbers between the two are actually quite close. A full clear of Nathria, if you’re not wiping excessively, has similar loot drops per minute per player as M+ does for timed keys. And frankly, a grind run of Nathria where you are wiping regularly is similar to failed keys for loot per minute per player.
The only core issue in my mind is that M+ awards gear that is quite a bit lower itemlevel compared to the challenge in the instance itself, and quite a bit higher than the challenge from the Vault, at least at most key levels. When clearing normal and heroic Nathria, your vault reward will 99.9% of the time come from your M+ slots.
It’s way easier to clear a +7 than it is to clear 3 heroic bosses, it’s way easier to clear a +10 than it is to clear through Stone Generals on heroic, and I presume it’s probably easier to clear a 14 than kill 3 bosses on mythic (though I’ve yet to do either). Those all grant equivalent Vault rewards, though (213, 220, and 226 itemleve, respectively).
On the flip side, however, you need to be clearing +7 just for the direct drops to equal normal Nathria, and you need to kill a 15 just for loot to get 3 below heroic Nathria, which is highly disproportionate.
I’m increasingly inclined to think that M+ should have a weekly lockout per dungeon, and that keystones should just be straight removed and replaced with a Greater Rift like level selection device, capped a few levels ahead of the highest level you’ve timed. That would let the instance drops and the vault rewards be equalized. Analyze the completion rates versus itemlevel for raids at the 3 difficulties and M+ at the various levels and tune the M+ rewards so that they reward similar itemlevel, both from direct drops and the vault, for similar difficulty.
Bam, done.
And for a bonus round, let’s go ahead and use the PvP item system for PvE. Items drop, but you also get currency from every boss kill in raids and every M+ completed, relative to the difficulty, and can use that to purchase further items, or to upgrade any of them (purchased or dropped) to higher ranks, with the highest rank you can upgrade to controlled by your progression in M+ and raids.