Raid buffs and rogues

Classes Rogue
1

Apart from all the issues rogues currently have, another problem is getting into groups for higher M+ keys.

When I came back from work, the only thing I want is to chill out and play for a while.
But apparently, because my class isn’t super duper meta I need to spend literally hours to find a group for keys higher than +11.

And I understand why, its not people’s fault, but blizzard fault.
Rogues have basically nothing unique to bring to the table for m+ these days, what other classes cannot.

We don’t have Heroism, aoe grip, magic or physical debuff on target. And for Assassination you cannot even chain pulls which is even more terrible!

The only thing we have unique for m+ is shroud, but since most mobs has stealth detection, it becomes more useless than useful.

Back in the days we had smoke bomb with aoe reduction, 5% haste as a raid buff and also 5% magic debuff.

Rogues definitely should get some, if not all of those things back into their toolkit in order to increase our chance getting into groups for higher keys!

8 Likes
2

Yeah, some classes just get more and more new toys while already having a lot (cough mage cough), but we’ve just mostly lost stuff or the abilities aren’t useful any more. We need an update, for example shroud should have that sub speed increase talent baseline at least.

6 Likes
3

I spoke on this in another thread here, and I’m largely in agreement. I don’t know if I’d go as far as saying that we provide nothing in a group setting, but it is true that the things we provide aren’t very obvious. For example, we’re not out here being invited for numbing poison. In fact, it can be argued that what we do provide as benefits (mostly passive, like those non-lethals and talents that apply DR) likely end up being misconstrued as better play on the part of the individual or group, as opposed to things we’re bringing to the run on the downlow – “Wow, we barely lived that fight. Our healer is amazing!” or “Wow, I lived that fight this time. I’m really good at using defensives, I guess!”

The basic idea is that we need lust/hero, we need a brez, or Blizzard needs to fundamentally reconsider how groups are rewarded for bringing underrepresented specs to keys. We’re the only role-immobile (ie. ‘pure’) DPS class lacking a valued, discernible, groupwide benefit. We can’t tank or heal. Look at the numbers–it’s clear that we’re underrepresented up and down the key ladder, and a lot of that has to do with optics that compound over time.

Imagine a situation where we have lust/hero–what’s the caveat? Imagine a situation where we have a true brez–what’s the caveat? Hell, fairly assuming that Blizzard has the capability to track this kind of thing (they do…), imagine a situation where the game provides more crests in a run that includes a spec with low seasonal representation–what’s the caveat?

If that doesn’t argue the case well enough, there are the more imaginative recommendations. I mentioned this elsewhere, but give rogues some kind of execute buff. Maybe we allow allies to apply a certain percentage of damage (2-3%) in the form of a DoT past 30% health. Maybe we’re able to spread weapon poisons to our pals. Etc., Etc.

It’s just gotta change, and being blanked in blueposts like the most recent tuning pass just so totally ain’t the way.

5 Likes
4

Im about to stop playing for the patch. Imagine only playing 3 days a week and most of that time is spent queuing for dungeons because absolute idiots for some reason dont think someone with 30 less IO than them is worth bringing to a +13.

1 Like
5

I’m missing like 100 score to 3k to get the mount and then I finally retire for the rest of season. Its getting me really exhausted to just find a group.

2 Likes
6

its always been a problem for me to get into mythic dungeons since forever…

mechanics are no longer there… rogues were ment to disrupt mechanics… take on additional adds… get to places where no one else could get quickly.

thats all gone… so yeah, no one cares about inviting rogues.

mechanics have to change… even if its just picking locks. so rogues have to be invited again.

6 Likes
7

I’m able to play daily and it’s not much better. I have to take breaks because the hours straight of “Your application to “+12” has been declined.” is running my patience thin. I’ve listed my own key, only to have it idle for over an hour with barely a few “undergeared” 2500 io applicants.

I am generally a higher IO than most of the groups I apply for, and it’s just decline after decline. Usually within seconds of applying, just for them to take some wild comp. I saw one pull 2 HDH’s instead of an Outlaw. The community perception of the class is in the gutter, and the lack of changes on Tuesday just hammers the problem home.

I’ll probably unsub if they rug pull dinars. I’m exhausted with the anti-rogue and anti-loot improvement behavior over the last 2-3 years, and it doesn’t seem to be getting better any time soon.

5 Likes
8

Sad story about M+ class participation - 3 pure dps specs represented from 0,4 - 1,7% max from +2 upwards is a complete joke.

3 Likes
9

Gotta love an entire class being 1/4th the representation of a single spec. Ret out here with 6-8% of the total just by itself and rogue as an entire class is barely breaking 2.4% at the best levels.

9 Likes
10

Ret has always been more popular and forgiving.

The problem is Rogue tools have been nerfed too much. BlizZard realizes this which is why the constant buffs to Feint.

But at some point they will have to buff the rest of Rogue kit like CloS back to 1 minute CD or even 1.5 CD. Crimson Vial to heal more or lowered CD. Sprint having a root break again and snare immunity for a few seconds.

:+1:

:surfing_man: :surfing_woman:

1 Like
11

the spec having fantastic visuals is a huge reason why its popular btw

1 Like
12

I think that just ties into good class fantasy overall.
The coolest thing rogues have is…
We can do…

Heck I dunno.

4 Likes
13

Not be seen, both literally and metaphorically.

I get we thematically don’t want to be seen, but im already noticed the second i leave stealth anyway. If I’m whacking someone to death that should definitely be flashy as hell for the time im fighting.

2 Likes
14

I was gonna say stealth, but then I got to thinking about druids, hunter camo, mage invis, and the icing on the cake, every night elf in existence.

2 Likes
15

Admittedly, we do have a few things. For example, having a low-CD long stun in single target is great, but, again, there’s the question of how much that kind of thing (just as with non-lethals, stuff like Iron Wire, AoE Blind, etc.) translates to discernible, qualifying value when groups form up in LFG. And, as I’ve mentioned elsewhere, that question has a very easy answer; I was in a new group just yesterday where the tank mused about how much easier our completed key was compared to a similar one from the day before. One guess for what didn’t make the list as a possible explanation as to why that might be. Hmmmm…

And to Mafic’s point above, we are nerfed too much, but I would actually point to the frequency and routine of the nerfs, as opposed to the severity, as our biggest design problem. I would also point to how often our unique tools are either scrapped and sold to others specs for parts in the design space or simply designed out of encounters entirely, but I won’t get into that here.

We’re nerfed a lot, and the bulk of blueposts from the last however many seasons/xpacks have largely relied on nerfs to really mention Rogues in blueposts to begin with. Many of those nerfs are rollbacks of powerful, signature tools, so the resulting dynamic is this kind of quasi expectation in the community that Rogues are only addressed when the expiration date of their major past improvements (which, pvp or otherwise, are already asterisked in this community/class-specific way) is up. From there, the macro cultural idea that’s developed is that Rogue is a class lacking lust, brez, and general pizazz, comprised of a bunch of dead abilities walking, begging daily at the feet of the groupfinder tool. Toss in the weird, lasting bias that Rogues were once kings of PvE and are, therefore, barred from reasonable complaint because of it, and you have a perfect storm.

But, surely, the devs are aware of all of this, right?

3 Likes
16

Something that’s always been interesting to me is that for years and years (probably still true outside of new classes) rogues are the least played class.
I’ve gotta say, my love for the rogue/assassin archetype in fantasy is probably the only reason I’ve stayed a rogue over something with cooler fantasy say… demon hunter.

3 Likes
17

It’s definitely interesting. And I don’t really mind it. I’m often the only rogue in my group, and there’s a bit of fun there.

The fun does dry up when the population numbers seem to translate 1:1 to design attention, though, which only further makes for a cyclical situation. Not many people play rogue, so it often eats last, which then makes fewer people want to play rogue, which means even less design attention, etc. etc. The day they bake in some kind of obvious Rogue ability that benefits groups in a material way is the day we’ll see class community numbers rise, no doubt.

2 Likes
18

I’m too lazy to actually look, but I wonder how our numbers looked when we could hide our entire party in stealth (I can’t think of the skill atm) vs other times.
I saw a post somewhere that was “if you could bring back 1 skill or ability, what would it be” and I drew a blank for rogue, I just can’t even think of a cool ability that we’ve ever had that screams “rogue” to me.

2 Likes
19

Cool abilities like Dismantle and Smoke Bomb? PVP talents.

Shadowblades? Made baseline to sub.

Relentless Strikes to make all specs play smooth returned back to Sub only.

CloS on a 1 minute CD now it is 2 minutes while other classes have immunities that are on lower CDs.

Sprint, Shadow Step and Grapple? Probably unique to Rogues but beyond that not much difference when other classes have gap closers that can break roots, stuns and snares or immune to CC.

Rogues have to use Vanish to break a root or snare.

Vanish is also for DPS

And for Survivability

Rogues need buffs to be popular again.

:+1:

:surfing_woman: :surfing_man:

2 Likes
20

That’s the problem, we’ve never been popular. I looked as far back as wotlk. We’ve always been at the bottom or very close to the bottom of popularity.

1 Like