Your mostly junk stats might be the best other specs.
And I’ll repeat what I keep saying in this kind of thread. Run keys with a dedicated group and every drop is a potential upgrade to the group as a whole.
Sure, you could keep whining to Blizzard to change it but in the mean time, I’m clearing higher keys every week because my group as a whole gets better.
loot is fine. y’all just going through withdrawal after bfa
also this. it def helps to run things with someone of the same armor type. but even in my group with only 1 plate wearer he still geared up pretty quickly.
loot was substantially harder to get in wrath then now. your point is… pointless.
The point was you can either have lots of RNG or less RNG. In the first week of BFA, a huge chunk of players already out geared heroic… Gear was coming from way to many sources and it trivialized content. The system now is still faster then it was in the past. Even when people ONLY raided, they were never guranteed pieces. With the vault, every week you have a chance at something. Play a little more and you have a chance at 3 things to pick from. Play a lot and its 9.
From BC to MoP, you would be lucky to get one useful piece per week.
The RNG isn’t worse. You can’t make that argument. It’s literally not possible to be worse just on the face of the fact we don’t have forging or corruption. Beyond that, you can target the content you want and do it enough to have 3 items to choose from. Or up to 9. I went months at times in BFA getting 0 loot from the chest that was useful. I NEVER got anything useful from the PvP chest.
No.
No.
It depends on which model you’re talking about.
RNG is not inherently terrible. There are many factors, such as how difficult it is to enter a drawing and what the success rate is.
As opposed to where I get a majority of nothing, and the rest of it is the same slot as my Legendary except lower item level.
That’s because the chest gave higher item level, not better RNG.
The weekly chest had the same RNG.
We had that with re-roll coins.
So could a Titanforged trinket from LFR. It was completely possible for it to massively titanforge, hit max iLevel, get a socket, plus a tertiary stat. Two of those RNGs still exist in the game.
Because you don’t raid seriously.
In Legion, you literally had to raid to get BiS, because tier sets still existed. M+ was not a legitimate path to end-game gearing until BFA deleted tier sets.
In BFA, there were still reasons you had to raid for BiS, such as the last two bosses of Mythic Raid dropping higher iLevel gear than you could otherwise acquire, better Azeroth trait mixes on the raid pieces, and ridiculous lack of balance on raid-sourced trinkets.
Only if you raid, because the BFA reasons for raiding still exist in Shadowlands.
You don’t get to just slip this in as if it’s completely obvious fact that we all accept as true. Why isn’t it healthy?
MMOs inherently thrive due to psychological manipulation. There is never an end of the story. A well-performing MMO has no hard limit on its life cycle.
The end of an MMO is when you get bored and leave. Anything that prevents you from getting bored is good for the game.
There are more reasons for this than people just wanting more loot. A non-exhaustive, non-ordered list of reasons:
1: Loot is a tradeskill material. Enchanting mats cost ridiculous amounts of gold, and max-level enchanters are required to exist for anything to be able to craft a Legendary, which is one of the expansion-defining systems.
2: People don’t like spending an hour in a dungeon and having literally nothing to show for it.
3: People don’t like spending an hour in a dungeon and having nothing but something 20 iLvL under their Legendary that only fits in the same slot to show for it.
4: The raid is harder than usual and people need loot to succeed at it.
5: Other sources of loot were also cut off, such as LFR opening more slowly than usual.
6: Other sources of loot drop worse loot than they did last expansion. See M+ iLevel nerf.
This is a false dichotomy.
For example, there is no reason why running 10 M+ dungeons couldn’t unlock the ability to choose two pieces of loot from the nine options. That is more loot and more choice.
Do you want to make a logical argument without fallacies and factual errors?
OP seems to be assuming that complaining about lack of loot is a desire to return to an old system.
This is a good point.
Blizzard could create a completely new system, even if simply based on previous concepts.
If every content you did dropped some number of Valor tokens and then you spent them to buy exactly what you wanted, that would be both based on an existing concept and completely new to WoW.
I didn’t say it was. I said it was because of those systems that RNG was terrible…
Then do content so you get an item out of the chest. The same content you would have been doing last expansion.
Never said it did. I’m saying that because people are complaining about the lack of loot, yet in the end, the loot that matters is from the chest. On the front end it might be harder to get gear, but as you start to fill your slots, you’ll have more options and a much higher chance at useful gear.
No it doesn’t. Not even close. You’re only contending with a few variables now. AND you can target specific content and specific dungeons to get from those places in your chest and have options on top of that.
I didn’t need to. I did M+ and PvP seriously. Enough to be 3800 on my druid. I didn’t have time to raid.
There were only a few BIS pieces that were better in raid compared to M+. Not enough to warrant dumping tons of time into if you just wanted to focus on M+ or arena.
Why?
You’re seeing it in this thread. Gear isn’t meaningful to most players and all they want is volume. We are gearing faster then we did compared to Wrath and many other expansions, yet people still complain.
The more and more you had down that route, the more you remove the satisfaction of having a meaningful reward after you complete your task. Players getting easy carries in +15s and Mythic level loot ruined an aspect of the game… Where difficulty and reward were more linked. While we haven’t completely reset that, this is a better direction.
And yet the raid has already been fully cleared on the same pace as many expansions.
Try understanding the history the game and where we came from. If you actually want to say what factual errors I made, please do so as your response didn’t highlight any. Only anecdotal opinions. All you did is incorrectly assume things and say I said things I didn’t. Nice job!
I’m not. I’m highlighting that the last system was the culmination of years of heading in the wrong direction. This is a bit of hard reset. I’m not saying I agree with it completely, but it’s magnitudes better then what we had.
To be honest,I just want gear for the right stats not a healer stat with all gear having versatility .Just plain simple gear.
You said literally:
Those systems were terrible simply because of RNG.
They could have not been terrible but kept the RNG. The RNG just had to be applied differently.
The systems could have remained exactly the same way but added a way to induce titanforging after drop with some currency and it would have been measurably better despite having the same RNG.
This is not even a little bit of a solution. You make embarrassingly bad arguments.
In order to get an item out of the chest, I have to do a M+. If I do a M+ and get nothing, I still did an hour-long dungeon and got nothing. The chest does not solve this.
Now I already know what bad argument you’re going to make next, so I’ll kill that too. You’re about to say “Doing a +15 means you get a 226 out of the chest!”.
Sure. But what if I do a second +15 and I get nothing? It means I spent an hour in a very difficult dungeon and I got nothing to show for you. See how the chest fixes nothing?
It’s amusing how you keep saying you never said things that I quoted you as having said.
Because the chest gives higher item level loot. That has nothing to do with RNG.
If you do one +15 for the week and get a piece of loot from the dungeon, then loot the chest, your chest will have higher item level for no additional work.
Your argument on this specific point makes negative sense.
It doesn’t give you more options or a higher chance. The chance is exactly the same. That’s not how math works.
The chest does not attempt to fill your lowest item level slots. It picks three things at random. If all you need is boots, the chest can choose to give you a shoulder, bracer, and pants.
In fact, only needing boots means you have fewer options. Because it’s extremely unlikely that you will get multiple boot options. You’ll get one boot if you’re lucky and you have to take that boot whether you like it or not.
Your argument on this specific point makes negative sense and is mathematically provably wrong.
You are demonstrably awful at math. The chest loot has the same chance of getting a socket as a random piece from a boss. You are wrong.
This is both a non sequitur and wrong.
You could always go to a place that drops the thing you want as a supplemental source of lower quality loot.
That’s great for you. Nice flex.
But it’s irrelevant. The BiS gear comes from raiding. If you didn’t raid, you couldn’t get the BiS.
Your argument was “but I didn’t have the BiS pieces” and you’re fully admitting that you opt out of the only place that BiS comes from. I wonder why you had few BiS pieces.
Your argument on this specific point makes negative sense.
False.
Every single raid tier, the Azerite pieces were strictly better than even same item level Azerite pieces from any other source, because they had either better trait mixes or special traits.
Every single raid tier, the trinkets from raid were overpowered and BiS. A high-enough titanforged Ashvane’s Razor Coral remained BiS into Shadowlands, where Blizzard recently hotfixed it. Blizzard also had to nerf several other raid trinkets because they were better than Shadowlands loots. These trinkets were indisputably better than anything you could get from PVP or your weekly chest.
In Crucible of Storms, Eternal Palace, and (especially) Nyalotha (because Titanforging was removed), the end bosses simply dropped high item level loot than you could get otherwise. In Nyalotha, this gear sometimes included special or guaranteed corruptions that was not available via any other method, even the vendor once added.
Your argument is provably false.
Your logic is laughably flawed. You honestly believe the proposed solution to the problem is the goal itself.
Players who aren’t you understand that they are offering a simple solution.
They want the gear because it is good.
They aren’t getting the gear because the drop chance is low.
They are asking for the drop rate to be increased.
Simple logical through line. They are not asking for more loot just so they have a bigger pile of trash. They are asking for more loot because they did seven dungeons and didn’t get anything.
Your argument on this specific point makes negative sense.
Players purchasing gear has always and will always exist and it doesn’t ruin any aspect of your game time. They maybe arguably ruined it for themselves, but who cares? They can do what they want.
Your argument on this specific point makes negative sense.
The speed at which Limit clears the raid is irrelevant. Limit isn’t getting on General Discussion and asking for the drop rate of loot in M+2 to be increased.
Your argument is a non sequitur.
Anecdotes and opinions are two separate things. There is no such thing as an “anecdotal opinion”. When you sprinkle in buzzwords you don’t actually understand to try to sound smarter, you often accomplish the opposite.
Just because you failed to understand the information presented doesn’t mean it wasn’t presented.
For example, the fact that I proved that RNG still exists but you think everything is sunshine and daisies now while asking people “Do you really want to go back to RNG?!” highlights your inability to spot factual errors being pointed out to you.
But its not a problem
unless i’ve been very lucky which i highly doubt
There’s one thing I’m not seeing people discuss is this (if they did and I missed it, my bad).
Let’s look at all the expansions, yeah?
BC through MoP had a relatively low drop rate of gear (more so in BC and WotLK). But, they still rewarded players for their efforts via badges/points that the players could use to purchase gear after some grinding.
WoD increased the gear drop rate and introduced warforging. Legion increased the drop rate even more (and introduced it to World Quests), in addition to introducing titanforging. And BFA has continued this pattern.
The point is: both sets of expansions had a system of reward.
SL is the first expansion to really buck that trend. Low drop rate like BC (but ridiculously so), but with NO badges to farm. No badges/points like Legion, but with very little reliable alternatives for gear. Heck, bonus rolls don’t even exist anymore (which was introduced in MoP).
THIS is why the players are upset. Currently, the effort::reward ratio is not balanced. They’re putting in a lot of work for very, very little reward (only 3 pieces of gear for an entire raid team!? This is madness).
Blizzard could (and should have) give us a badge-based system, and I guarantee you will not see the amount of complaints that we’re seeing now.
You’re an idiot, loot was far more accessible as there were not multiple tiers of items. You were also provided currency to buy specific slots if rng screwed you. Get lost kid, nobody wants to spend 8hrs doing dungeons for no loot.
First, you need to relax. Second, I did a lot of raiding and PvP in wrath and the gear didn’t come fast. That was a complaint in wrath by many PvE only players as well and one of the reason Blizzard has been clearly hesitant in reintroducing vendors.
The currency gave you gear that would have been just slightly better then what we are getting in mythic 0 now. To that, you couldn’t spam heroics. People were still clearing old raids because it was the best route to getting gear even after the new raids hit.
Which has NOTHING to do with what you said. I didn’t say RNG was inherently bad, which you said I did.
So bad you felt the need to ride a small novel to respond and yet… still plenty of people agree with me. Get over yourself.
Yea, and guess what man, that’s YOUR opinion. Since I actually focused on M+ last expansion and the best you can show for is barely anything at all, maybe I see it differently then you.
I actually did spam keys and the gear was pointless 99% of the time. I ended the expansion with only ONE piece coming from an actual dungeon drop. Everything else was from the raid or from the chest. The gear that came from the dungeon was useless after the first month. We spammed keys and got our gear then could go months with no upgrades.
See, the difference here is you only did the bare minimum to get your +15 in for the week and you act like that effort alone should reward you with mythic gear. You already weren’t spamming dungeons. You did what you had to and stopped and yet you and I were the same. How is that fair? Tell me smart guy. How is it fair that I invested significantly more time into M+ and yet you and I still had the same amount of gear to show for.
It’s amusing how you make false assumptions on things I said, even after quoting them.
Yes it does. The point is the gear that mattered WAS from the chest and now we have more control over that RNG then we did prior. What you’re complaining about is basically a lack of filler gear. You want participation trophies for your time in M+. How cute.
lol.
This is insane. It’s actually insane. Do the math then. Tell me how having 1 item with NO control coming from the chest is better then potentially 3-9 pieces that can be targeted is the same. PLEASE tell me. Please. Do it. Tell me how I went often months of getting the SAME piece of gear over and over and over. Tell me why I got bracers 11 weeks in a row Legion. Tell me how that is better.
Math? You can literally count on your fingers how many variables you have man. Do you know how to count?
BFA Variables:
Slot
Stats
Corruption
0 Content control
Shadowlands.
Slot
Stats
Can focus specific content for gear from chest.
Simply taking corruption out of the picture is massive. Until the vendor was released, players like me were spamming content in the hopes of getting a competitive piece. It was a nightmare to try and stay current.
That wasn’t true for every slot. I had 3 pieces from raid which I would have considered BIS compared to what i had, but even those were mostly side grades.
That isn’t what I said. I had 3 slots which could have had a ‘better’ piece which M+ didn’t provide. That said, I had a lot of pieces which ONLY came from the M+ chest that raid didn’t provide. So it goes both ways. Raiders still had to do M+ for many BIS pieces.
That isn’t false, nice try though. Azerite gear wasn’t some static thing. You could use different pieces depending on the affix and dungeon.
Since you didn’t actually do any difficult M+ dungeons, I can understand why you don’t know that, but please don’t force your ignorance on everyone else.
No. It’s not. Gear is chosen for lots of reasons. It’s not static. While there are some pieces that provide a good setup for MOST scenarios, they aren’t always the best for ALL instances.
So no, you’re flat out wrong and should seriously be embarrassed. You don’t have the experience and the more you talk, the more it becomes obvious.
I have really nothing more to say to you. You clearly have some axe to grind and went on the attack right off. You don’t have the experience and you’re shoving your OPINION down my throat as if its fact. It’s not.
Still waiting for you to show me were I was factually wrong… oh, you can’t… since it was your opinion. meh.
Because mythic+ is spammable, we cannot have just loot alone without titanforging or need less loot or that would be the end all be all system and the only one people will do. People gyrate towards the path with least resistance, so considering you get 1 lockout per raid difficulty per week, mythic+ is what people use to get gear. Something else has to happen in order to give incentive to stay raiding or the raid scene falls apart because of how easy it is to do mythic+, easy being that it takes only 5 people vs 10-30 for raiding, or just 20 for mythic raiding.
You guys want this system to be the end all be all, that’s AN end path, but if you look at the reward level it falls below mythic raiding. It would have to and here’s basically what you guys want in a nutshell:
Mythic+sers/community: “We want more loot.”
Blizzard: “Ok, we will drop more loot.”
Raid community: Who wants to raid?!
Mythic+ peoples: Nah, I can get like 15-20 times more gear from mythic+ than from the raid. Raiding is a waste of my time now.
Raiding no longer happens or happens nowhere near what it should be happening because everyone is loot chasing for more loot from spammable mythic+ dungeons/keys.
Well there goes the raiding scene. It may not be fully dead, but it’s gotten 10 times smaller due to people just spamming mythic+s day in and day out til fully geared.
On top of that, there goes PvP because people are just spamming keys instead of doing the other two forms of content.
If Blizzard makes the loot less than heroic item level, then cool, but then mythic+ people will complain and whine because they want to be decked out as high of gear as mythic raid, but the thing is mythic raiding isn’t spammable. It’s a lockout, same for all of raiding difficulties.
Like, it’s never enough for you guys. It starts with “we want more loot” then it becomes “we want even more loot” or “we want higher loot” “we want better loot” and it just doesn’t end, at all. The scene will not be satisfied until you’re able to 100% fully deck out a toon in a single day spamming the entire day, at which point they might as well delete the other 2 forms of content.
Sit by and wait your turn.
BECAUSE OF HOW SPAMMABLE THE SYSTEM IS
You guys literally don’t learn. Mythic+ has the bonus of being spammed 24 hours a day 7 days a week if you wanted to. This cuts majorly into the rate at which you can gear up toons. MMORPGS are meant to be played LONG TERM, not short. That’s how they make their money, you have to keep playing. Games are NOT free, you have to come up with money from somewhere, somehow and pay.
Even free to play games have to come up with money or they never update, at all.
If you guys want to start paying blizzard 45-60 dollars a month per account, cool, I’m sure they could be happy with that and instead make the gearing short term so you can all cancel subs once you’re done, otherwise they need to make money.
Do players suffer? Sometimes, or even in WoW’s case, a lot of times yes. WoW suffers from a lot of things, everything from all of the babying it did for its playerbase all the way down to instant gratification systems and speeding up things to get players used to fast pace like gearing up in BFA / Legion did. People love to call this “keeping you on the treadmill” yes - subscription based games SHOULD be doing this, it’s in their pay model.
Let’s take the JP/VP system, k. They had it before where regular mythic dungeons did it, correct? I don’t think heroic or normal did it but I could be wrong here or they just gave very little, maybe had the vendor cost a lot.
Bringing in the mythic+ system into the fray…where you can spam keys all day long 24/7…you could earn up what would have taken you a week to get gear, even a month, could take you 1 day. Literally 1 day of spamming mythic+, and players absolutely would do this. “If it has a reach, players will reach for it regardless of whatever they have to do, they will do it.” – This is entirely accurate because of the degree to which people go to this length. It sucks for the pay model of a subscription game because “we want it now” does not translate into “you will have it, within a few months at most.”
They’re here to make money, just like all of your jobs that you guys work. They make money. They want money. All of you wanting to get so much gear to drop so much more often ends up making that money come in less because instead of keeping you playing 4 months, 5 months gearing up, well now you just geared up in a week. Bye sub til next tier, unless you work on an alt which again some people do not have alts. They do 1 single character the entire expansion. Literally just the single character. The moment that character is geared up, they’re done.
Now if mythic+ didn’t reward valor/JP or there was a cap, that’s a diff story. In that case, YOU PEOPLE WOULD STILL BE COMPLAINING! You would be crying out “Why are you gating my gear!” etc, because that’s exactly what happened before with everything.
The older system was on a mythic dungeon lockout, it was 1 time per boss per dungeon. That’s it. You had a cap, and they still got yelled at by players with entitlement issues because “WHY ARE YOU TIMEGATING MY GEAR?!” – because you otherwise would not play is the shortest answer. You’re not making them money if you’re not playing or paying for a sub.
No one agrees with you. An overwhelming majority of these responses are telling you that you have no idea what you’re talking about. Go spout this nonsense on a forum with a dislike button and find out how truly unpopular you are.
You’re provably bad at math.
You’re provably bad at logic.
You’re provably bad at accepting reality.
Everything you’ve said has been thoroughly destroyed. I didn’t respond to you because you matter—I responded to you because you made a lot of shockingly awful arguments and everyone else deserves an explanation of how shockingly bad they were.
Your trash post was the celery stick for my ranch dip of facts. Get over yourself.
Well said Adroi! Sure it sucks not getting loot or killing 10+ bosses in a raid and no loot but this is an mmo. And like you said, loot pinata was bad for the game and it went on for quite awhile. It is nice now to have some sense of an accomplishment back in the game for putting in time and work for something you want.
I am very glad Titanforging/Warforging is gone too.
Doing the same bosses 10+ times and getting nothing doesn’t make me feel very accomplished tbh.
I would love to see WoW do the whole FF14 approach to loot.
Yes
Absolutely
Nope
If the powers are actually fun and not just boring passives, sure
I loved AZ gear…just didnt like how they made everything RNG. If the armor had fixed traits on them AZ gear could have been 10/10 imo