Lol what am I trolling about? A dude randomly says I play a comp that I don’t and I’m somehow trolling? What?
Locks aren’t even that overpowered… I mean do you remember S5 DKs or S12 warriors?
Nerf Destro.
yeah rogue mage seems like it’s in a weird place
i personally HATE everything fire rmpal has been this entire expansion
but i can say that conflict completely negates rogue mages ability to play the game pretty often
toxic blade needs it’s cooldown doubled and dam% nerfed big
fire bracers and gpy need to not exist but fireball needs it’s damage buff
but conflict stun % is not the healthy or skill stimulating answer
people have been so oppressed by god awful rmpalas this entire expansion the hostility is easy to understand though you just started playing so it’s super baffling to you
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Yeah I dunno. Its been a really weird season to come back to, like it was fine early on but once vers came on the vendor, we just stopped queueing. Talking about rerolling at this point lol Who knows maybe gushing will give us enough kill potential in our gos.
I dislike rogue/mage as much as the next person
CnS reducing damage during stuns is a stupid mechanic and should be removed
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That was part of the issue - when you could fish a trinket early and lock a player out for almost a full 90 seconds, matches often devolved into a 3v2.
The bigger issue is that you would use a stun as locking down the kill target - not preventing a heal by locking down the healer… And with MFD, you could guarantee full duration KS to both targets. Making it a 1v3 in those clutch scenarios where trinkets have already been fished. (Thank you)
To me, it seems stuns were really intended to enable kills against “someone else”. For example, you stun the healer so the damage “kill target” can be bursted down.
Outside of that, they were meant to be used for setups (ramping up your own damage) and for damage reduction (stopping an enemy CD from destroying you while out of other defensive abilities).
Again to me, locking down a healer while you kill a different target is fine. The problem is you could lock them both down with stuns, which ends up being very toxic for the gameplay.
Conflict and Strife doubling the defensive bonus of the healer under that circumstance does nothing to prevent the kill.
Again though, the problem rests with how damage reduction scales off versatility (100% damage reduction at 200% damage bonus is ludicrous), not the things stacking up high versatility in the first place. If instead a 200% damage bonus resulted in (edit) halving incoming damage from versatility (it requires 100% more damage to kill you), there would be a much smoother curve to how incoming damage gets mitigated at the end of an expansion, where secondary stats scale out of control.
You can only KS one target, it has a cooldown.
This is where I disagree. We will secure CC on a healer, which by the way isn’t easy depending on the comp. You have to juke out kicks, stuns, coils, etc. in a cheapshot window (if you’re lucky to have cheapshot on the healer on that go). If you don’t have cheap shot for the healer into the poly, you have to deal with healer kicks, prems, grounding, shifting, LOS.
Getting a go like this thats clean is awesome, and then you do 30% of the targets health with CNS vers stacks. Its brutal.
If you go the healer with CNS, the off dps are either destroying you or locking you down. All while the healer has 50-60% damage reduction in good gear.
To try to get around this, i created two weakauras to track reaping flames / conduit casts. I then mid match have to determine who is running what. Thats our kill target. Legitimately its that bad. You just can’t kill through vers / cns stacks.
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What percentage damage do you expect to achieve?
Edit: I understand that the comp used to 100% players in that window. That’s why it rose to such a high amount. I think 30% is a good chunk of damage during a lockout window, but with current procs, we know 30% probably isn’t enough. If 100% is too much and 30% is too low, I’m just curious where the “zone” would be for it to be enough. I personally have to wait for 40% for a go, and that’s running Breath major (and pretty much guarantees that most fights, I’ll be the first one dead - probably in a stun).
With setup comps like jungle, rmx, cupid, etc. You should be able to kill in a setup if they don’t react with cooldowns. Otherwise, a healer can heal 30% in no damp in seconds.
Historically you have had burst comps like these and their counter-part rot/pressure comps like phd, shadowcleave, tsg. Both great designs imo.
Without the ability to secure a kill if the enemy doesn’t trade a cooldown properly. There is very little chance setup comps will be able to compete without LOS’ing for years against wizard dmg, or flat out just lose vers melee pressure comps.
In the end, your healer ooms from the pressure while you can’t put out the damage a rot comp can so you flat out lose by design. At least this is how it was in TBC. I remember warrior, SL/SL lock/rdru would just beat the hell out of us, if we didnt win in the first 2 or 3 goes we were toast.
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The argument is 100% then.
It seems like a lot to write, almost as if trying to mask that answer.
I don’t think I can help enable a productive discussion at this point.
Maybe you’re right.
But then we’re back to everyone one-shotting each other.
It’s not a design I’m fond of, nor one I think healthy for the game.
Calling it PvP requires your opponent to have agency.
Controlling them removes that agency.
If they can be 100% killed while controlled, that’s not PvP.
That said, I’m on your side.
Versatility scaling is a problem.
It got out of control, enabled by the late game effects.
But “how” aside, it’s securely rooted in another fundamental flaw:
Versatility’s damage reduction component scales linearly to 100%.
This is the problem. And it goes unaddressed.
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There is typically a counter to the burst, that is those classes, rogue/mage, historically are squishy. Problem is they aren’t this expac, then you add the vers stacking on top of it.
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There also used to be a much higher skill floor when it was sub/frost so they could make huge mistakes and had harder setup. Sin/fire are by far the most brain dead and forgiving specs of all 3 of their respective classes’ specs.
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Doesn’t matter, fire mages and locks can switch to full haste and get off .08 or 1 sec chaos bolts and pyroblasts. You can’t hide from that.
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so in other news I was going to quit, but my Whomper from the blizzard store arrived and it’s so damn cute. I cannot quit now. I’m going to train my Whomper to play frost DK.
The news of my Whomper should make everyone happy.
First, I want to acknowledge that at stupidly high levels of versatility, particularly with the essence doubling the value during stuns, the damage reduction from versatility can become silly.
However, I’d like to suggest that outside of these levels, the fact that each point of versatility becomes more powerful is in fact a very good thing for pvp.
The effective health of a target increases with stamina and versatility.
The damage a player does scales with the combination of primary stat, crit, haste, mastery, and versatility. As such, over the course of an expansion, the average time to death of a player decreases without healing until crazy levels of versatility are met. Healing scales similarly to damage. As such, games are much spikier towards the end.
A simplified scenario (unrealistic - with no corruptions, procs, or essences):
Player A has an even distribution of secondary stats.
Player B, gearing somewhat defensively, has a full half of their secondary stats invested in versatility.
Assuming that 1% of crit, haste, mastery, and versatility are worth similar amounts, the amount of damage done in terms of percent of health by Player A to Player B increases as secondary stats are added until 13,000+ total secondary stat rating. At this point, the 6,700ish versatility starts to break even, then pull ahead.
6,700 is a lot…a whole lot.
If instead, two player A’s were beating on each other, the time to death with no healing would instead continue to decrease until about 30,000 total secondary stats when the 7,500 versatility would start to slow dying.
Note: for those who care, this is assuming 0 base crit and mastery with 0 rating applied.
Future hope:
If Shadowlands starts out with players dying in an appropriate amount of time without healing, please don’t nerf the damage reduction formula for versatility unless players are intended to reach such levels of secondary stats.
Just a reminder that not a single one of these tuning changes targeted destro warlocks despite an overwhelming outcry for it.
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Demo is tankier, but they aren’t an issue with awful burst.
Yeah. Who would post on an alt?
Certainly not Auz my fellow ret bro
If I had a Ret I would post on it.