I like vanilla pvp, especially world pvp, because it makes the world feel much more alive. However, to my taste, WoW Vanilla lacked to give more meaning to deaths, raising the risk would make deaths more meaningful, making surviving in the game more exciting and satisfying, especially by winning a World PvP match. That’s why I loved the Hardcore project understood as permadeath.
I understand that for many it is very categorical to die in PvP and get a perma death, so below I propose some ideas for hardcore pvp that maintain a high risk, but not as high as death in pve (remember that in vanilla pvp death is different from pve, since the first does not break the armor and the second does), also in pvp you can be hunted, ganked, killed among several, so it might be acceptable to limit the hardcore consequences in that aspect
A. Consequences with looting:
- That, as a general rule, dying in pvp does not lead to permadeath, but that it is attributed greater consequences than vanilla, for example: (a) not being able to revive until an hour later (in that time you could play with an alter… and this would give a greater sense of victory to whoever won an encounter in world pvp); (b) that whoever gave you the killing blow can loot a non-soulbound item from you (I know many people are disgusted or terrified of looting in pvp, but we’re talking about hardcore, it’s lighter than losing the character).
- Mak’gora: a) dying in mak’gora would be the only way to have a perma death in pvp. b) dying in mak’gora would make all your non-soulbound loot lootable by the winner… in my perspective it is not easy to get mak’gora duelists, so a bit of ambitious incentive I think wouldn’t hurt.
- Pvp kills that carry the consequences of point A1 (one hour cooldown to revive and you can loot an item) should be equivalent to honorable kills. This means that if you get killed by a skull player, it’s like if you get killed in vanilla wow, you can run back to your body without any other consequences.
- If a mob gives you a killing blow, but a player of the opposing faction was hurting you at the same time, that death will be considered PvP, and your character will be able to revive under the conditions described in the previous points…
- Extra: I like the idea that if you die because of pve, meaning perma-death, you can loot with another one of your characters all the non-soulbound equip of your fallen character, within 24 hours from his death.
B. Same but without loot (or similar):
- That the deaths in pvp do not lead to perma death, but that they have some consequence greater than vanilla, that matches with hardcore. For example, they could have some kind of honor system, or one similar to mak’gora’s ears, that give you some kind of ear
for pvp kill (not the same from mak’gora’s ears, so you have two types of trophys), but they deduct one ear for pvp death, and according to the number of ears you keep per week they give you a basic amount of honor points per week (this is a suggestion very open to opinions, I just thought of this); not being able to resurrect before a shorter amount of time (I suggest at least 15 minutes). The idea of these consequences is to give more sense to a death in pvp, to feel the risk in the open world, but something not as drastic as a perma-death, for reasons already explained.
- Mak’gora: Only way to be perma killed in PvP, you earn the trophy ear. I wouldn’t change anything.
- That the consequences of point B1 apply only to honorable kills, this is to avoid griefing of high level players vs lowbies. This means that if you get killed by a skull player, it’s like if you get killed in vanilla wow, you can run back to your body without any other consequences…
- If you die from a mob killing blow, but a player of the opposing faction influenced your death, causing you damage, it will be considered a pvp death and not pve (unlike vanilla), and you will be able to revive…
C) PvE server but with some incentive to activate pvp and limit perma death to honorable kill. This is to be able to level with pvp activated and not be killed like a bug by a high level ganker…
D) PvP with permadeath, no special rules, simply hadcore pvp at its best.
I would love to read your opinions, I like A, B and D.
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We should focus on simply advocating for a PvP Realm because that would be extremely simple for Blizzard to implement.
A and B water it down too much, in my opinion. D would be my most realistic wish. C would be nice. I think some type of Soul of Iron buff type system would be interesitng. Alternatively I think making grey players be dishonorable kills could work too.
But I don’t want to go making wishlists. We should just focus on advocating for a HC PvP Realm with no changes from HC Normal. Because that’s most realistic. We know Blizz doesn’t want to put any dev money into this besides the bare minimum. So I think a plain HC PvP Realm is the only realistic wish.
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I thought they said they were thinking of still having the Classic PvP titles up and you could start working for them at any level, but that once you got to 60 you could do the R14 grind safely as your 1 life restriction was up. That is a rumour. I do not know it that is true or not that we have unlimited deaths once we hit 60.
I think they should make it so anyone in stealth isn’t fully invisible. But, rather like in HOTS, where they shimmer with an outline.
WoW isn’t the right game for something like this. Some of the ideas actually sound fun but basically it amounts to a custom version of Classic for the two or three classes that are decent at low level PVP.
Imagine you are a Night Elf Rogue fighting a same level, same gear Orc Rogue and they just RNG resist every one of your stuns and you don’t dodge a single one. Is that skill?
So while some of your ideas are interesting, your solutions are very complicated and would be difficult to implement. The dev team that works on the ERA servers is extremely small and unlikely to get larger, this means that any changes need to be simple, reuse existing code, and only touch small areas of the code base when possible.
The likely audience for a HC pvp servers is also pretty small, likely much smaller than for the official PvE HC server, while this doesn’t mean that they won’t consider a HC PvP server, it does need to be feasible without impacting more important key projects like SOM2 or even a fresh ERA server. One challenge you will have is showing there is actual demand for a HC PvP server.
The other thing to consider, many of your changes eliminate this from actually being HC, as it complicates things unnecessarily in PvP unlike PvE, so do you really even want a HC PvP server? The other problem with a PvP server, you need to figure out a way to address the population imbalance which has a huge impact on PvP, without a fix to this, you simply end up with a single side PvE game, where one side will likely bow out, this is not a factor with a HC PvE server.
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Thanks for your outreach. As for your last point, I know that faction imbalance is a problem, however, and despite that, I would still gladly play on a pvp server; I like to play on servers where my faction is in the minority, at least as a rogue it’s more entertaining when your faction is the weak one.
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One thought for you, and while its obviously not a perfect solution, but one of the posters on another thread, Daddysinpie made a comment about creating a HC PvP Guild on the official HC PvE server so he could have the true Hardcore experience, where everyone in the guild would have to play with their PvP flag on. While he might have been serious or joking, this might be something you and other interested PvP players could do.
While obviously not the same as an actual PvP server, you and other interested parties could potentially get a Horde and an Alliance PvP flagged Guilds going on the server, and depending on interest you might have a decent PvP community. With probably the only real hard rule being you never turn your PvP flag off.
If there was some minimal coordination, you could also potentially set some minor rules to try and limit griefing and steamrolling for example suggest people not stroll around Westfall as a 60 instead bring someone more level appropriate, thought advise in the end its all PvP and sometimes life won’t be fair, and if the rules are violated which they will be, there are no complaints, and people simply need to start again.
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I think a lot of this would balance out on its own, due to the death = perma ghost mechanic. I personally advocate for a no changes HC PvP Realm. Also one of the most popular SoM servers was Jom Gabbar (PvP).
I have extensive experience playing on Bloodsail flagged. It’s a real thrill for me. I would really like a pure HC PvP server.
This might sound unbelievable but flagging on Bloodsail gets you a lot of hostile and profane messages for seemingly no reason - from your own faction. I want to be away from these players and with ones that engage in the same play style I do.
On a PvE server the vast majority will never flag unless they are at a clear advantage on you. I’ve died in these scenarios with no complaint. That’s something I accept about the HC PvP challenge. However on a pure HC PvP Realm this scenario will be self righting, higher levels will be hunting gankers for honor since BGs will be disabled. The dynamic on a PvP realm will be so exciting and fun.
There are a few changes like making grey lvl players dishonorable
But let’s just focus on getting an HC PvP Realm because me and many other players will have fun playing on such a server.
I won’t disagree that a real server would be better, I just personally liked the idea myself, and figure I might even make a character that could try it, though I suck at PvP so would likely not last long and would be cheap cannon fodder to any real pvp player. It also might be able to help show that there is a real demand for a HC server.
As for the toxic people on Bloodsail, unfortunately that seems to have come with the HC add-on community and I am hoping they are the ones who feel they need appeals so don’t last on the official server, as trust me as some were just as nasty to people who were not pvp flagged, though I will admit, I don’t think I had as many people swear at me as it sounds like you did. I also found many people to be extremely rude to the RP community whose server it was they invaded.
Personally I can’t see why anyone would be upset about someone else PvPing, perhaps it was the fear of getting griefed, and where they suspected anyone with a PvP flag to be linked to some griefer. With the changes Blizzard made to eliminate using the PvP flag as a way to grief, hopefully at least that attitude/issue will go away, as those who want to flag for PvP should be able to without getting harassed.
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Very articulate and genuine post.
That’s another thing - RP servers - I would really like an RPPvP server but trying to keep my wish list limited and realistic for the most part.
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I really like this idea, happy to join my faction’s Guild PvP and cooperate as much as I can with the organization.
Maybe we could create a discord channel to organize inter faction PvP Guilds.
If we are lucky, maybe someone will develop an addon for flag pvp tracking, or something like that.
Perhaps the HC addon with the insane in the membrane achieve. I hope I won’t need to settle for this option though.
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