Rated participation is down but casual, random BG activity is up. Rated pvp has it's own issues though.
Blizz stopped reporting its official sub base back in wod because they got nailed to the cross money wise by investors when they last reported it had basically decreased almost 50%.
So Im not sure how you can prove this.
12/29/2017 10:46 AMPosted by NipnipzSo Im not sure how you can prove this.
http://www.wow-stats.com/bgwr01.html
Hasn't been updated lately but they did frequently update in the past.
When you dont even know what you're talking about with gear ilvl, please, PLEASE don't use it as the crux of your argument. Its 915 LFR.
I wanted to post this on my alt warlock. I level this character fresh about 2 weeks ago, I haven't done much arena on a lock since WotLK and decided to mess around a bit. I have gotten a few pieces of "Gladiator" gear so far, and I would just like you to take a loot at them.
My ring is "Legion Season 6" and is 925 item level, my helm is "Legion Season 6 Warforged" and is 920 item level, and my boots are "Legion Season 6 Titanforged" and is 920 item level.
I have 3 Legion Season 6 Gladiator items from arena, 1 is titanforged and 1 is warforged, yet those two items are 5 item levels lower than my ring, which isn't warforged.
The gearing for arena does not make sense. World bosses and LFR have a better chance of rewarding me higher item level because when they proc a titan or warforge, the item level actually goes up.
12/28/2017 08:59 PMPosted by JugajrRandoms are far better without people there chasing some CP/HP. They could make base gear drops at 900, and echoes reward 925 or 930... but templates have improved random BGs so those should 100% stay.
Templates need to stay in WoW, otherwise you have World PvP level damage in random BGs. No one wants that.
Blizzard is even taking it a step further, changing the way World PvP works in the next expansion. To be honest though, this separation of the game is getting a bit out of hand, at some point you need to just normalize pve and pvp or make WarcraftPvP a different free to play game entirely.
The problem with gear rewards from BGs is that it was always meant to match Heroic dungeons. If you've done a heroic dungeon lately, you are rewarded like 860-885 gear. the problem is, no one does heroics anymore.
BGs need the gear increased to 915 because the time commitment now rivals that of doing a boss in LFR. Also, with templates in BGs, the ability to "Outgear" your opponent, such as out gearing a dungeon is gone. There's no gear factor to help make capping a flag easier anymore.
Arenas and RBGs need the base item level to become 930, 950 at 2000 rating, and make titanforged and warforged actually make a different on gear.
It's an old comparison system that either Blizzard needs to acknowledge and change, or maybe behind the scenes, more people are still doing heroics then I believe and on the grand scheme of WoW, the amount of people doing BGs is equivalent to those doing dungeons. =/
This is because WoW was a different game back then. In all expansions before WoD, PvP was a great way for players who weren't that committed to raiding to get gear.
World quests, LFR, Mythic+1-3 high rolls, etc have all lead to this game being a lot easier to gear in. Back in MoP you could spend an hour a week capping conquest to get an epic that was on-par with high level PvE stuff. This is not longer necessary.
LFR is in the game since Cata. Tiered difficulties for raids, with the Normal tier being very acessible, is here since Wrath.
Back in MoP, that same piece you mentioned was better, for PvP, than the high level PvE stuff.
It was not really the existance of PvP gear as an alternative gearing method, but the fact that it was better, in most situations, than most PvE gear, for PvP.
No, both are true. A lot of people who like PvP (in a lot of video games) like the aspect of being able to simply jump in and play. That's why FPS games and MoBAs do so well. Hard to master games, but easy to just jump in. There's no commitment to Overwatch. You can take a 2 month break and come back and be at the same level as everyone else. It's great for casuals.
Again, you're mixing audiences.
This game's PvP audience comes from the WoW playerbase, which plays WoW for it's RPG aspects.
You mentionedd "a lot of video games". You have to compare it to, at best, to other MMORPGs.
Blizzard actually asked a lot of people and got this as a response, which is why templates came to be.
Which were clearly a mistake.
WoW is a unique game in the sense that it is one of the few MMOs out there that is continuously successful. It is an MMORPG and the way the gear has be "handed out" has ruined a great lot of PvP for those players interested in the gear grind. Why try to RNG a 920 piece from PvP when I can go AFK in LFR and get 930+?
PvP templates are great because they help a lot with balance and lets people jump in and play without feeling like they are to far behind, but Legion did a terrible job of balancing this out. No honor talents make you feel like half a class and no meaningful gearing rewards for outside of PvP makes it feel pointless.
These two paragraphs are inconsistent with one another. The first speaks about the issue of RNG gearing and ilvls, while the second praises templates for the opportunity to jump in and play without feeling behind.
But here's the thing - Why does it matter if the gear you obtain from PvP is ilvl 900 if what all the PvP players are interested into is jumping in and playing with Templated Characters?
It could be ilvl 0 for all they care.
It's clear that that's not what "players want". Maybe a few very casual BG players, or some dedicated arena players, but the great majority of this game plays PvP in the exact same sense they play PvE.
They want direct rewards that work in the area of the game they are participating, and they want that gear to both boost their character's power and function as a way to differentiate their character's from others.
I wonder if raiders would like a template as well. Probably. Seems like blizzard is part of the participation medal. They want to "even" things out for the people that don't want to put in the effort. I personally think pve is boring. The same dungeons have the same encounters. Pvp mixes things up. You don't know what the enemy team will look like. You don't know how they play. I understand that pve has a wider fan base, but that doesn't mean everybody life's it. They should really work on streamlining the gearing system for pvpers
12/29/2017 02:40 PMPosted by Klaivaskarr
LFR is in the game since Cata. Tiered difficulties for raids, with the Normal tier being very acessible, is here since Wrath.
Back in MoP, that same piece you mentioned was better, for PvP, than the high level PvE stuff.
It was not really the existance of PvP gear as an alternative gearing method, but the fact that it was better, in most situations, than most PvE gear, for PvP.
You're right about this to an extent. PvP gear was a lot more meaningful back in the day because things like resilience mattered a lot more in PvP. However, I mean back in TBC/WotLK when the majority of WoW were still doing dungeons and wipping in 10 man kara, PvP gear was quite useful and easier to get.
Again, for the mass majority of players that didn't hardcore raid, PvP item level/stats/ whatever was on par with some high level PvE items. It was an easy fix for people just trying to up their character's power.
But yes you are right, PvP gear was more valuable for PvP.
Again, you're mixing audiences.
This game's PvP audience comes from the WoW playerbase, which plays WoW for it's RPG aspects.
You mentionedd "a lot of video games". You have to compare it to, at best, to other MMORPGs.
I think there's both to be honest. PvP games strive off being able to log in and play whenever, without feeling at a complete handicap. While WoW is an MMO, I was trying to get at the fact that WoW is one of the few MMO style games currently on the market. It's a nice targeting - combat system with 3rd person characters. Smite I think is close to WoW, but no other game has been able to do it as fluently as WoW does.
There is a large group of people that want thee ability to simply log in and play, hence why in Legion BETA, the idea to have a PvP island was tossed around. To simply log in at any level and play with everything maxed. That player base does exsist.
Legion got the closest possible to having this a reality for those players, while also having the opportunity to give player progression, Blizzard just failed to commit fully to it.
Which is where I believe we are now. Honor talents feel half-assed and character progression rewards, which this thread is about, is a lot of what is hindering PvP for those MMORPG players.
You can have the best of both worlds, honor talents can be baselined, while giving players meaningful upgrades in PvP. Yes, I understand that item level has little effect on the actual outcome of games, which is a good thing, but there are other aspects of WoW that Blizzard seems to not consider.
Most people here hint at that situation. "If PvP item level doesn't matter in PvP, what does it matter what item level is rewarded?"
The answer is simple, because there are other aspects of WoW those items can be used in. Challenge mode tower, daily quests, all the way to wanting to raid. If PvP had this "items don't matter" feel, while also rewarding players appropriately, we wouldn't be in the situation.
Players who enjoy the "jump in and play" aspect could do just that, while people who want to feel some sort of player progression, mainly outside of pvp, could also experience that too.
(Additional changes could be a slightly higher power boost in random BGs for who are 2000+ rating etc.. Elite Sets could have a bonus that reads "increases damage and healing in Random Battlegrounds by 15%" )
These two paragraphs are inconsistent with one another. The first speaks about the issue of RNG gearing and ilvls, while the second praises templates for the opportunity to jump in and play without feeling behind.
But here's the thing - Why does it matter if the gear you obtain from PvP is ilvl 900 if what all the PvP players are interested into is jumping in and playing with Templated Characters?
It could be ilvl 0 for all they care.
It's clear that that's not what "players want". Maybe a few very casual BG players, or some dedicated arena players, but the great majority of this game plays PvP in the exact same sense they play PvE.
They want direct rewards that work in the area of the game they are participating, and they want that gear to both boost their character's power and function as a way to differentiate their character's from others.
Yea, I was having a brain fart that night. But as I posted above, I think Blizzard has the ability to grant the "best of both worlds."
I'm conflicted on the "players want power progression" because while I understand it is fun for those with 1800 weapons to play at the 1400 rated bracket, I am also well aware of the issue and annoyance it is to be 1700 fighting nothing but people with 1800 weapons. It's a double edge sword, you want to feel more powerful, but you don't want gear to be the sole deciding factor in a win.
There is a limit to "Get gud" when you are pressing 123 vs someone else who is pressing 123, yet he's doing 25% more damage.
I'm at 2k in 2's... my guildy did a raid finder and got a 960 piece... I got a 940... Trinket of course, because god forbid I get an xmog piece even though I've gotten 2k 3 times within these 2 seasons.12/29/2017 10:25 AMPosted by BertimusKind of sad that I ended the week at 1900 last week and my weekly isn't even worth a bonus roll since I'll be doing heroic with my guilds alts tonight.
Itās so silly. When we had pvp gear, ya maybe when you started you were at at a disadvantage for a short time, but there was always a remedy. Queue and get your gear. Now your rng god may never allow you to be equal to the others
12/29/2017 01:52 PMPosted by TingBGs need the gear increased to 915 because the time commitment now rivals that of doing a boss in LFR.
LFR is weekly rewards. Random BGs reward gear after every single win (and even sometimes a Glad piece after a loss) which is probably why they keep it low. If it matches a weekly type reward, don't expect gear after every win. Random BG gearing is fine tbh, if anything maybe a bump to 900 and add rings/trinkets to the echo vendor.
12/29/2017 03:45 PMPosted by FleasprayqtWhen we had pvp gear, ya maybe when you started you were at at a disadvantage for a short time, but there was always a remedy. Queue and get your gear. Now your rng god may never allow you to be equal to the others
Yea, individually it wasn't bad. But look at now, you never see the same people in a random BG so last expansion you always had CP geared toons going against fresh 100s or boosted players. They can add vendors back but templates need to stay. They have actually revived BGs, coming from someone who does, and did, nothing but BGs. I'm also okay not being equal with those who do Mythic raiding and high rated pvp, you hardly see them queue randoms anyway.
12/29/2017 09:22 PMPosted by Jugajr12/29/2017 01:52 PMPosted by TingBGs need the gear increased to 915 because the time commitment now rivals that of doing a boss in LFR.
LFR is weekly rewards. Random BGs reward gear after every single win (and even sometimes a Glad piece after a loss) which is probably why they keep it low. If it matches a weekly type reward, don't expect gear after every win. Random BG gearing is fine tbh, if anything maybe a bump to 900 and add rings/trinkets to the echo vendor.12/29/2017 03:45 PMPosted by FleasprayqtWhen we had pvp gear, ya maybe when you started you were at at a disadvantage for a short time, but there was always a remedy. Queue and get your gear. Now your rng god may never allow you to be equal to the others
Yea, individually it wasn't bad. But look at now, you never see the same people in a random BG so last expansion you always had CP geared toons going against fresh 100s or boosted players. They can add vendors back but templates need to stay. They have actually revived BGs, coming from someone who does, and did, nothing but BGs. I'm also okay not being equal with those who do Mythic raiding and high rated pvp, you hardly see them queue randoms anyway.
As it stands currently, I don't believe it would be that bad to have PvP item level a bit higher than PvE because the limiting factor of stats, set bonuses, and useful trinkets. Although, I don't believe anyway in it's current state is ideal.
Rated Arenas and maybe RBGs, I haven't done a RBG in awhile, should reward the same gear as Mythic+ dungeons, on a 1-1 ratio from rating to keystone.
This is how mythics+ work
Keystone/ Drop/ Weekly
2-- 890 --905
3-- 890 --910
4-- 895 --915
5-- 900 --920
6-- 905 --920
7-- 905 --925
8-- 910 --925
9-- 910 --930
10-- 915 --935
11-- 920 --940
12-- 925 --945
13-- 930 --950
14-- 935 --955
15-- 940 --960
Now everything here can obviously warforged and titanforge up to 995 I believe.
PvP should reward the exact same (PvE) gear a player would find in mythic dunegons along with Echos of Battle so players can purchase their PvP gear mainly for xmog.
Rating - Drop - Weekly
900 -- 890 --905
1000 -- 890 --910
1100 -- 895 --915
1200 -- 900 --920
1300 -- 905 --920
1400 -- 905 --925
1500 -- 910 --925
1600 -- 910 --930
1700 -- 915 --935
1800 -- 920 --940
1900 -- 925 --945
2000 -- 930 --950
2100 -- 935 --955
2200 -- 940 --960
Again, everything can warforge/titanforge as if it was in a Mythic+. And these numbers on ratings to item level can change. If it's easier to pvp at 2200 than it is to run a mythic +15, then change the rating, these are placeholders.
You now have the choice to raid mythic+ dungeons or do PvP at a respectable level. The gear you get won't be useless, like +2500 vers. shoulders or trinket, and you can even get creative and make certain Arenas drop certain gear.
IE, instead of farming Dark Heart Thicket for that shinny trinket you want, Wins on Ashmane arena have a chance to drop that shinny trinket, so when you do get that map, you try even harder to win.
Don't have to spam mythics all day, you can mix it up with some PvP and get rewarded appropriately.
Rated did reward the same gear... till this season. We have one more season while the raid is fully out. They planned it poorly tbh. Every other season, the highest ilvl player was a pvper.
I donāt know but Iāve got 2 pieces of ilvl 930 gear from random battlegrounds yesterday
Make bgs and arena participation relevant please blizzard.
The new system and the new moba style playstyle FAILED VERY HARD.
You tried it but it didn't work.
Give different gear sets for all your pvp modes, recolor them for all I care, at least give a unique model from the pve sets and its a step in the right direction.
The new system and the new moba style playstyle FAILED VERY HARD.
You tried it but it didn't work.
Give different gear sets for all your pvp modes, recolor them for all I care, at least give a unique model from the pve sets and its a step in the right direction.
12/29/2017 03:01 PMPosted by BweedooI wonder if raiders would like a template as well. Probably. Seems like blizzard is part of the participation medal. They want to "even" things out for the people that don't want to put in the effort. I personally think pve is boring. The same dungeons have the same encounters. Pvp mixes things up. You don't know what the enemy team will look like. You don't know how they play. I understand that pve has a wider fan base, but that doesn't mean everybody life's it. They should really work on streamlining the gearing system for pvpers
They sort of do, its called an aura instead of a template. Doesn't really work as a template it is just raw damage % added or subtracted.
Some would, the player base has degraded enough that it would be an attractive idea and I've already seen several whine threads asking for either a template system or less stats to manage. We're taling about mythic raiders here not LFR players. I've even seen suggestions to remove all stats except main stat and vitality from gear. These aren't the people that should be being catered to considering the new success metric that they use for investors is hours played. What should be happening is more and deeper stat interactions considering that model in both game modes.
Although the template does do one thing well, prevent stupid pve or pvp nerfs because an ability or synergy is too strong in a given game mode. That issue could be handled in other ways as well though. This is where the player base feels the effect of poor design and testing practice.
Part of the reward in these games is figuring out your stat budget for item level in pve. This used to exist in pvp as well, I used to have several stat focused builds for my dk and rogue and it was quite fun to play with those options available. Not to mention necessary in some cases.
I have to say that the stat budget for pvp gear makes no sence what so ever. The gear is templated in instance, and stacking verse isn't going to save you in world pvp, so the whole thing ends up being a car wreck.
12/29/2017 10:55 PMPosted by GagexI donāt know but Iāve got 2 pieces of ilvl 930 gear from random battlegrounds yesterday
I'm calling shenanigans. To get 2 titan forged pieces in a day on randoms is super unlikely. I play about 8 hours a day and I'm hard pressed to get 1 titan forge
No seriously, a ring and a relic. I never got anything above ilvl910 before this from a random battleground so I donāt know if it has something to do with prestige or if it was just luck but it did happen.12/30/2017 09:28 AMPosted by Bweedoo12/29/2017 10:55 PMPosted by GagexI donāt know but Iāve got 2 pieces of ilvl 930 gear from random battlegrounds yesterday
I'm calling shenanigans. To get 2 titan forged pieces in a day on randoms is super unlikely. I play about 8 hours a day and I'm hard pressed to get 1 titan forge
Just like the AP. It was nice, really nice to acquire AP while doing what you liked, pvp. But now that my main has maxed his prestige, poof no more AP.
How many more things are they going to double down on proving how much they hate us pvpārs
How many more things are they going to double down on proving how much they hate us pvpārs
can we keep this going so we can see how long it takes for a blue post or blizzard to say anything about the gearing system. If not here on twitter or something maybe?
The pvp gearing system is worse than ever before... Blizzard? Hellooo?