Pvp as a rogue and killing in stunlock

As a 60 rogue its frustrating when i get opened up on with cheap shot, and im stunned the whole time and end up dying,

To doing the same thing on another rogue or any player for that matter, and cant get him down to even half before the stun is up.

What combos are these rogues using, and are they using thistle tea and all their cooldowns everytime?

Not all rogues can stunlock properly, you have to build for it a bit and it’s definitely not a big raid damage build. The big things are imp gouge so that you can restealth during the incapacitate and reopen with cheap shot, and Preparation just in case you need to reset your cooldowns. Thistle tea isn’t necessary but it can help smooth your energy usage out a bit.

Based on you being 60, i assume you are referring to Classic.

They might have / You might not have … the talent that help.
Most in the stunlock combo have…

Initiative = extra point on opener.
Forget the name = reduces energy cost of Cheap and Garrote by 20 energy.
Then Imp Eviscerate.
They also might be running cold blood.

Plus gear can help out alot.

You might be doing the same exact thing, But if you rocking greens and blues and they got like half epics…well…its harder for you and easier for them.

Assuming we’re talking about Classic:

Pure stunlock build is generally going to be a hemo build. It usually looks like 21, 3, 27. These numbers can vary somewhat, if someone wants to take a bit more in assassination over subtly for unknown reasons.

The important talents are basically going to be dirty tricks, hemo, improved gouge, and initiative.

Initiative means you have a 75% chance of getting 3 CP on the opener. This means that you can cheapshot > double hemo (total of 110 energy), and then slide into a 5 point kidney (total of 135 energy used; you regen 40 energy during the 40 second cheapshot stun).

Improved gouge is used incase you don’t get that initiative proc. It allows you to go cheapshot > hemo > gouge > regen > 4 point kidney.

After you’re in the kidney, they’ll generally be able to build up 3 combo points, pop CB, and get a crit that will finish off just about any non plate user. There might be a 0.5 to 1.00 second ‘opening’ at the end of the kidney, depending on where they were in their energy regen cycle when they opened on you.

This is also assuming no 5 point nightslayer, which results in a super clean stunlock.

It’s important to realize that this build is absolute garbage in pve. Rogues who are running hemo are 100% in it for the pvp, and are being carried to gear in their raids unless they’re respecing. Not much of a problem in MC, but just saying.

If you want to try and do a clean stunlock without being hemo, your best bet is probably going to be SF daggers. 31/8/12 to be precise. That, with 5 piece nightslayer, gives you two options:

The high-risk, high upfront burst combo. CS > backstab > kidney > backstab. This has about a 50% chance of having 4 CP when you kidney, due to the backstab crit, and should let you get one more backstab off at the very end of the kidney. This will kill undergeared players, and leave decently geared clothies (without hots / shields already on them) at critical levels by the time they’re unstunned. On the flipside, it’ll also leave you at 0 energy with an unstunned enemy at the end… Allowing them to hard cast a heal / CC you, unless you have grenades.

The low upfront-burst combo: Cheapshot > SS > imp gouge > kidney. This combo will let you pull off a 100% stunlock for a longer period of time, but leaves you more vulnerable to other enemies showing up and screwing up your 1v1. It is, however, more reliable and less dependent on RNG. Where as the CS > Backstab combo has the potential to leave you at 3 CP on your kidney, this combo will always have you at 4 CP for the kidney. In addition it has a good chance (double whatever your crit % is, so generally just around 50%) chance to allow you to land the kidney at 5 points; because either SS or Gouge critting will give you the extra combo points you need. Watching your energy ticks will result in you being able to backstab very quickly after the kidney lands (you should be at 0.5 seconds before you regen to 60 energy when you cast the KS on the breaking gouge). If you proc Relentless Strikes you can land a backstab right after the kidney GCD, and another within about 1 seconds of the kidney expiration. You can reliably do this; you’ll have a 80% chance to proc the 25 energy regen with no crits, but then you add on the chance to crit with SS and gouge, so real numbers are more like 90% of the time you’ll be able to squeeze out 2 backstabs in that time frame. If you pick up improved kidney shot (+9% damage to targets in kidney), this is the highest burst you can do without losing control. While this combo is slightly more RNG dependent than hemo’s combo, and offers the chance for help to arrive.

The above combo, the low-upfront-burst, is also the best use for thistle tea. You will wind up with exactly 0 energy right after you KS > backstab with it. This means you can pop a tea, pump out two more backstabs, and then a cold blood eviscerate before the target escapes your stun. This is the combo most people are thinking about when they talk about vanilla rogues “stunning you to death”. It’s our kill combo.

EDIT: This is, of course, build variety in this. The SF daggers build I’m talking about invests points into Improved Ambush. I personally do 30/8/13 because I can flex into 5 piece nightslayer, because sometimes our utility in pvp is the ability to delete someone even without stuns; and nothing says “Hello healers” like a 75% chance to turn your opening ambush into a 1600 nuke, and then follow up with a 1200 backstab. However, you can just as viably put those 2-3 points (depending on if you need vigor or not to do the combo right) into initiative. This removes the guess work from getting 5 cp in the CS phase of the combo, and makes it so you can transition from gouge into a 5 point kidney more than 80-85% of the time. So it’s more reliable for duels and 1-on-1 situations, but (imo) less useful for multi-enemy situations because you won’t be able to reliably remove one target from the fight with a non-stun opener.

Happy hunting.

1 Like

You basically have to root rogues and kite them. If they are on you, backpedal away from them to avoid being backstabbed while damaging them.

If they gouge you, you will take a backstab but can root and blink away. You want to do huge damage as they won’t be able to get a full bandage off with blind being dr’d.

If you are getting stunlocked its most likely just ch eap shot and kidney shot. I doubt any rogue would vanish in an opener to cheap shot on such a short DR.

21/9/21

cold blood.
cheap shot.
back stab.
gouge.
wait… . .
kidney shot.
back stab.
gouge.
blind.
wait. stealth.
Cheap shot
backstab
gouge.
wait… kidney shot.
backstab
gouge.
vanish.
prep.
cold blood
cheap shot.
back stab.
gouge.
wait… . .
kidney shot.
back stab.
gouge.
blind.
wait. stealth.
Cheap shot
backstab
gouge.
wait… kidney shot.
backstab
gouge.
backstab.

seriously… they are dead by now…
you used prep and cold blood(2x) vanish(2x)

No reason to blow the prep if the ambush from 1st vanish would finish them.
you want to get better at stun locking?
take SS off your bar.

Rogues only have 100 energy, and regen it at 20 every 2 seconds (in chunks).

You’re going to have a hole inbetween your cheapshot expiring and being able to gouge. Even with Dirty Tricks cheapshot costs 40, and backstab costs 60. So you’ll use up 100 energy immediately, regen 40, then cheapshot expires. You’ll then be facing an aware and unstunned enemy for 2 seconds while you wait to regen the energy to be able to gouge. You can reduce this to something like 0.5 seconds if the stars align / you can open on a target that’s standing still so you can time your regen.

The second gouge in your list is going to last 2 seconds due to DR. As you’re going gouge > kidney > gouge, which leaves you a grand total of 6 seconds non-gouge time.

Further down the list, the cheapshot you vanish into is also going to last 2 seconds, as DR’s won’t have reset. You also continually advocate gouging in spots where you haven’t had 10 seconds for the cooldown to refund, or it’s going to last all of 2 seconds. This results in tremendous holes where people can react (hard-casting heals as your’e constantly operating at 0 energy, popping an aoe fear / root, switching to defensive stance, ect).

Basically, this guy hasn’t played a rogue in his life.

1 Like

Hey mr. mage. You are a mage. You can blink out of stuns. So any Rogue that wasted the energy to cheap shot you is really bad at the game. Just blink and frost nova. Now you have a dead Rogue.

-Undead Rogue.

Unless the rogue is combat and has improve sprint and baited the blink with the cheap shot so he can force the block with a kidney shot.

GG Mr.Frost mage, you’re about to get destroyed.

Oooh pvping in combat means you’re going to have a bad time. My suggestion would be to just get really good at reading mages, and gouge their blink. if timed correctly the mage will teleport but will be hit by your gouge for 5.5 seconds so you can close the gap.

-Undead Rogue.

So far it’s been very enjoyable, only trouble has been geared shadow priests.