It’s always interesting to see how fixed the idea of hardcore v. casual is in different people’s minds. That being said, I’m not sure how the hardcore end-game in WoW is being forced on anyone. You don’t need to raid Mythic to see the story. Pushing M+ is completely optional, and really not worth the effort beyond a +10. Rated PvP is there if you enjoy it.
Time, effort, difficulty and skill required, and rewards all play a part (and not mutually exclusive I might add) in creating the perception of what is or is not casual/hardcore.
It may take me 10 weeks to start earning 400 ilvl gear from conquest, so that checks the time box for me. Effort . . . I have a lot of free time to play so I can get most of it through Incursions so I wouldn’t say that checks the effort box. Difficulty and skill are also unchecked although I admit being in warmode can be trying at times. Rewards . . . well for me 10 weeks is a little grindy when I can just run a +10 once a week for twice as many chances for better gear.
One could also argue that even if there were a defined definition of casual/hardcore, it certainly isn’t static, at least not in WoW. A prime example is the bumping up of rewards for content usually associated with casual gameplay.
Anyways, I’m not saying your perspective is inherently wrong, but I think there’s quite a bit of evidence to the contrary.
Everything they have to do outside of Mythic+ or Mythic Raiding is designed with the sole intention of funneling them enough gear to get them into Mythic+ or Mythic Raiding, though.
None of those things are really “content for their own sake” so much as vehicles of loot meant to fast track you to the “real content”.
Is it casual “friendly”? On the surface, yes. Until you realize that once you’ve geared up from all the “casual content” there’s little to nothing left that stands on it’s own power.
Been playing consitantly since late BC never unsubbed only times I didn’t play are when I was at work or off doing real life stuff (longer gaps due to vacations).
I’ve Normal and Heroic raided in past now just mainly LFR in current.
When I was able to raid with my guild we only ran 1 day a week .
Here is the common thread. You are using the terms casual / hardcore as though they only have one exact definition when in fact they are on a sliding scale. I utilized EQ because its a very similar game (moreso in Vanilla which I also reference as why people may want to get back to that kind of play).
In EQ - if you cant show up at the drop of a hat to raid anytime, any day 74x7, you are a casual. So if I use that lens to look at WoW, anyone who can only show up and raid from 6pm-8pm 3 days a weak is a worthless casual. Which is true? I could argue either side on a mechanic scale as well.
The terms causal / hardcore are based more on the community standards. WoWs community standards have changed dramatically since Vanilla.
You appear to be arguing to BFA casual / hardcore standards.
I would prefer a more Vanilla /EQ casual / hardcore standard.
Both are valid opinions, they are just different.
Main point is pushing players with a very casual leveling experience to a more hardcore raiding experience is much harder than pushing a hardcore leveling experience to a more causal raiding experience.
You absolutely can be a hardcore casual and often those are the players with the most toxic and elitist mindsets in the game because the game is designed for them more than any other players and they know it.
The difference between casual and hardcore is just in how seriously you take the game and how much effort you put into being good at it.
Casuals literally do not care if they’re good and have no interest in understanding or beating the game … they just want to see some flashy spell effects and pretty colors while they stomp through whatever content they’re doing.
You can be a hardcore player who only plays 6 hours a week or you can be a casual player who plays 20. It’s all in how you approach the game and what you’re trying to do.
What do you mean the developers have a goal they want to push people to?
Look this is not a sandbox game. There are levels of content for everyone to do. The developer’s goal is to get as many people as they can playing the latest and greatest content because that is where the most significant return on investment is. There is a bunch of non end game stuff that can be done, most of which has already been discussed within this thread. Most of those items are simply afterthoughts to appease a niche crowd (pet battles, collections, pvp, etc…) and as such do not garner a significant portion of the resources and will never be a major component of the game. This is why the esports drive has shifted torwards pve content. That is where the majority of pkayers reside, and it is mostly by design.
I mean I just don’t get what you want. This just sounds like you want to preach on a soapbox of what you personally think a perfect game is. Who cares what you personally think?
If you wanna discuss things blizzard can actually implement, go for it.
If you wanna just make vacuous statements like “make game better for me” then idk what to tell you.
90% of wow is made for casuals all the hardcore players really have is mythic raiding, rated pvp and high end(over 15) M+. Also are you not considering all the zones they have for lvl content endgame content(argus, suramar, tanaan, ECT.) I mean casuals get a large bulk of the content.
Title of thread " [Pushing players towards the endgame is a mistake]
All I am stating is why I think [Pushing players towards the endgame is a mistake] in the current design of the game. The issue is the skill gap required to level vs the skill gap required to endgame.
Honestly, you thinking I am saying something because I want something is the issue. I really have no want here. Keep things as they are. Make them harder. IDC I am gonna do me.
Everything I have stated was not due to my personal preference or a desire to change the game in any direction. I am just pointing out what I consider to be the flaw in the current model. Making level extremely easy and making end game extremely hard is gonna cause problems due to skill gap. Thats it.
Raiding or not the game involves Timeless hours when you are having fun. Point being everyone’s idea of fun differs and people should not complain so much, as of how individuals and their game play has nothing to do with one another.
That’s… not what a casual is. All being a casual or hardcore boils down to is time and effort. What you’re describing is a “welfare brat”, which definitely exists in game.
To the OP’s argument up top: casuals existed in Vanilla. Most of the playerbase was casuals. Most of them never saw high end content. Most of them never got Grand Marshall. They were fine with that and did things in their own pace/time and still enjoyed the game.
I’m not really sure at what point Blizz actively decided to stop making the game hard and why, since casuals were fine with it being too hard in vanilla.
Casual players pay the bills so they have had no choice.
Every bit of programming they’ve done for casual players and pvpers looks like they did it because they had no choice and not because they wanted to.
I’m confused here. So… “Casuals” are being pushed towards an end-game activity like Raiding, Mythic+ dungeons, or PvP. But they don’t want to do any of those three. But they want an end-goal to pursue. I mean… That’s what pet/mount/achievement/transmog hunting is for? And they keep adding new mounts and battle/hunter pets and transmogs?
I fail to see the issue of casual players getting higher and higher ilvl gear for just doing daily solo activities in the game.
Many players are upset because " casual" content is offering greater rewards. Every “elitest” on the fourms has been complaing that the increase in rewards is “catering to casuals”.
Giving heroic rewards for doing easier content has been deemed to be “catering to casual” by a majority of heroic/mythic raiders.
I said
Because for the most part this is what the community belives.
Its in every forum i read like this.
By what you are saying mythic/heroic raids and 15+ keys can be considerd casual content. If thats true then no one could complain about WQ rewards. And this entire game should be considerd “casual” and no one would complain about the rewards given no matter the content.
He’s right at least about WoW being a game made by hardcore players (Vanilla). Obviously that’s not true any more. I highly doubt most of the staff even plays the game.
Actually, the “Hardcore” developers did not like the direction WoW was taking in catering to casuals. They left and created Wildstar. I have never played it but from what I hear, it would make most people either cry or ragequit. It ended up failing last year. The reality is that games can’t cater to the “harcore” because they number in the few while casual is legion lol. Who would you try to appeal to as a business? Exactly.
Does this sound like a hardcore game to you? Review from 2004:
A game where the grind is virtually eliminated–a game where downtime is relatively nonexistent, where enemies respawn rapidly and dynamically according to how many players are in the local area; where you can use a healing spell, or bandage yourself, or eat some food, or all three, before diving right back in again. Your character’s death doesn’t result in the loss of many hours of experience points, or one of your items, or any money (although there is item decay, so whatever you have equipped currently takes a 10% durability hit). When you die, you resurrect as a ghost who moves quickly, runs on water, and cannot be harmed on its way back to its body. You can also have a player resurrect you in a matter of moments, even after you have entered ghost form. This is a game that understands Fun
WoW has been described widely as a “newbie-friendly” game, but after playing since the closed beta phase that started back in Spring of this year, I can honestly say that WoW is friendly to everybody. Everything from the colorful art style to the endearing player animations, to the countless quirks of personality makes WoW an inviting experience. Blizzard’s passion for gaming joy is infectious, and its sense of humor disarming.