100% agreed. I felt the exact same way.
Who wants a system that only makes you feel poorly about your character no matter what you do; and that’s before nerfs/adjustments as the expac progresses.
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Third this, they sounded like a great platform to get rid of Horde Vs Alliance restrictions and instead ended up with a glorified reputation locked talent.
Come on Logo spit it out
It’s the part where you need other players for things, and you aren’t a walking T1000, able to do everything perfectly with the click of a button.
There will be a clear best “for this content” and a worst “for this content”. You the player decide what you specialize in. You know, make a normative choice that simcraft can’t just output an answer for. Shocking I know.
No, it’s basic MMO design. If you can do every fight perfectly all by yourself, you don’t really “need” other players except more meter padding, which means you’ll never appreciate players for what they bring, only how they hinder you.
That’s because Classic was ridiculously easy. You’re conflating “unoptimal” for useless, on purpose. It’s dishonest. If the content it sufficiently simple then unoptimal is still useful. I’m more than happy to go back to that design.
Absolutely not. Some players whined that Wrath was too easy. They gambled on the casuals that stayed through Wrath staying for the spike in difficulty, and they could pick up tons of “game too EZ, bored now” types. It backfired spectacularly and they spent the entire expansion backpedaling, but it was too late. All LFR could do in the end was temporarily stop the bleeding until a content drought started it up again.
This is a conflation. Gogogo isn’t “fast casual dungeons” it’s “Near perfect APM or you’re useless, git gud scrub”.
You don’t think these changes in SL are an appeal to the rose tinted days? These changes are absolutely an attempt to get Wrath- players back into the game, and it’s been apparent since Legion.
BFA launch was just a garbled mess. Legion’s main problem at launch was RNG legendaries, which hurt more than anything because content was too difficult in the endgame. You had the mythic difficulty raid in BFA be equivalent to Naxx 25, and I’d love to see raid leaders TRY to bench people for not RNGing the right legendary.
The only problem I’m seeing is that the devs haven’t made the content difficulty consistent with the RPG style of the game they’re trying to appeal to.
It’s not about every fight . It’s about people being able to do the content they want . I like both pve and some pvp .
Some people like running more then one spec. And they may use certain specs for certain content.
If we have to make toons for each form of content isn’t that more like playing a Moba then being able to do all content on a single toon.
#ripcord9.0.5
The only way they are getting enough Wrath people back in to wow is Classic WotLK
Yeah but why not just change your spec to be viable? Why don’t we just abolish classes completely and just let people put on whatever skills/passives on their bar from any class that they want? Full customization amirite? It’s because I know, and you know, that constraints are what give a thing identity.
Talents were supposed to differentiate specs, but when everyone just swaps to the optimal talents on a fight by fight basis, that’s a bust. Every holy paladin is 100% identical to every other holy paladin. It’s the same class/spec principle just applied also to a spec. That’s a good thing. The more immutable ways characters are differentiated, the better.
Yeah but it’s failed. People have demanded 100% talent flexibility and “balance” to the point where all specs have “an AoE build”. All specs have “a single target build”. And God help Blizzard if my AoE talent set up is too far from the AoE talent set up of another class. The sky is falling. So that’s lost. So either Blizzard makes talents inflexible, or they bring it back by adding a system on top in which you have to commit to some degree of specialization.
But OH NO, that’s gone too far! People literally won’t be satisfied until classes are just abolished entirely at this point.
Why would you think that things that will help you specialize in a raiding role will translate over to a PvP role? This is also a problem that PvP talents should be addressing. Because if you make this thing swappable enough that you can change from raiding to PvP on a dime, there’s nothing stopping you from swapping on a fight per fight basis. And then:
simply can’t happen. Ever. If all classes have the expectation that they can swap talents around and do all the stuff other classes do, there is no choice or incentive.
Or, just realize that you can’t be God at everything.
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I find the biggest offending part of covenants will be that I will end up losing choices in reality. By picking a covenant I have a large chunk of my character that can’t easily be changed and therefore all other choices will have to revolve around that block. On beta I’ve tried various builds and some covenants will just outright use a certain talent build or legendary that won’t work for the other three, its dumb.
Suddenly I’m not just locked into being venthyr I’m locked into breath of sindragosa with the legendaries that scale with breath of sindragosa and the conduits that scale with breath of sindragosa. And I want it in my good soulbind tree which will have frost relevant conduits so I can enjoy having a worse experience overall when I might want to tank, and no feeling whatsoever for experimenting with unholy because the cards are stacked against it due to “meaningful choices.” Why should I be locked into one of many cookie cutter death knights when I could just be a death knight with options?
Logo just come out and say it . Say what everyone else with a pair says .
You only want it locked to make people play like you do because you find enjoyment in people not having fun the way they would like .
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No, because if you can do everything on a single toon then so can everyone else. And so the only distinguishing factor between players is spatial IQ / APM. Not choices they made about their character, purely their physical aptitude at clicking buttons. And you can’t get more MOBA than that if you tried.
I’m waiting for that. They’re clearly not going to fix retail by trying to appeal to everyone like they’re trying to do. So I’ll just go play in Wrath when it launches, when WoW knew what kind of game it wanted to be.
It’s literally the only reason I care about this expansion. I want to do something other than “pick the talents simcraft says to pick” for my character. I want to make a Necrolord “over time effects matter” Druid. I want the strengths of that build, and I want the weaknesses of that build. And I want to see Kyrian Druids and know that they’re different than me due to what they bring.
Because those options don’t exist. You can go on icyveins or some other guide set right now and know exactly what cookie cutter talents you’re “supposed” to play. Heaven forbid that due to the nature of covenants, you actually have multiple cookie cutter set ups for different covenants you get to pick. Nah, let’s just go back to one like it is now. Sounds better.
I too think we should abolish classes. Any restriction in the game for any reason is just an excuse to rob people of “fun”. We should let people put whatever abilities and passives on their bar that they want. Anyone defending the class system as it stands just finds enjoyment in people not having fun the way they would like.
In total agreement bro.
Troll detected , troll ignored
I don’t believe in abolishing classes. But I should be able to do all content of my choice with my chosen class/spec with every ability that class/spec has to offer.
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Really? You’re going to pull the whole “you just hold your position because you want to be a tyrant meanie doodoo head, just admit it!” and call me the troll? Adorable.
Correction make that a 10 y.o. troll
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Well I was paraphrasing you, and it did look like a 10 year old wrote your post. Sorry the mirror stings.
Grouped these together. Because you don’t seem to be at all understanding what I’m saying whatsoever. You can design a game with classes that can work and synergize together without at the same time neutering players ability to lowering the cap in what makes from either being meh to garbage.
You seem to think it’s okay to have these systems in place just because I want to be at the best of my classes ability in each of the content available in the game. Which fun fact, even at my best there are going to be classes that outperform me. So why widen the gap even further? Because “muh RPG”? That makes no sense.
And in what expansion are they pulling from? Aldors vs Scryers? No. This “choice” is something that has never been in the game before. I’d be more for a system like this if there was no such thing as Mythic Raiding and the game focused more on the community aspect. But seeing as we have top end and the community element has changed, this system will blow up just like Azerite/Legendaries/Corruption all over again.
flips table
THAT’S WHAT I’VE BEEN SAYING!
If the level of difficulty isn’t on the same level, how the hell are you going to balance these 4 Covenants across 3-4 different specs within 3 different progression paths of the game? They’re attempting to jump the shark when all they need to do is K.I.S.S (Keep It Simple Stupid) because the game is far more complicated now then it was back in Vanilla - Wrath.
There are players who want to partake in multiple avenues of the game and want to do well
Screwed
There are players who also play this way on the top end where these choices matter much more
Screwed
There are players who want to experiment with these abilities to create their own personal builds
Screwed
Players who want to play multiple roles on their class
Screwed
If your game doesn’t reflect the system it’s trying to introduce, you’re only asking for the same frustrations we’ve dealt with in both Legion and BFA. It’s going to be a disaster and players are going to become fed up very quickly. Both the ones messing around with it for the first time and the players who have given extensive feedback on Beta Forums about how and why this isn’t going to work.
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Im not a minimizer by any means but my xp playing on beta it felt like certain covenants were only useful depending on your role. I mean do you want a defensive ability or a dps ability sort of things sometimes.
They should have just made a level 60 talent tree with the new abilities and left covenants about how aldor and scryer were designed.
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Okay, now you’re just making nonsense. We’re talking about covenant abilities. If you want a discussion on whatever the “community” has done to devalue the classes, feel free. If you had taken two seconds to actually read what I was saying, I was agreeing with you that classes should have more identity.
If you want to talk about a different issue, feel free to start another thread, we actually agree on some points. But I’m not indulging this tangent any further.
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You use this word “synergy”. I do not think it means, what you think it means. Having all your classes hit a button that makes them go AoE for the AoE fight isn’t synergistic. It’s just stacking AoE. Synergy is building a party where you should have X single target specialists, Y AoE specialists, Z buffers, etc. to do well in the content. And that kind of synergy demands that people can’t switch on a dime.
Yeah, the problem is that the classes that outperform you, often don’t have a lot of other weaknesses. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve looked at the forums over the years and saw complaints about OP classes that did everything well. You know how you stop that? Stop respeccing. Let’s suppose they beat you at all content, ST, AOE, you name it. But they have to pick one, and your mathematical best at X is better than their X if they specialize in Y instead. Then you aren’t just doomed to be the mathematically inferior class forever because they’ll always respec to beat you, you’ll have at least one thing you specialized in, that the other player might not have, and you’ll have your day.
I think Blizz needs to nerf mythic raiding until people calm down then. This problem has only happened because Blizzard has made the game consistently harder since Cataclysm. It’s a Blizzard created problem with the community that Blizzard can fix, over night, with the snap of a finger.
You’re not going to have that balance. And you don’t NEED to have that balance. The vault already bottlenecks your ability to be optimal at different content if they fix PvP gear the way PvP players want their gear fixed independent of any discussion about covenants. If they bring resillience / PvP power back, then you’re not going to do well in PvP if you just pick the M+ piece of loot from your vault every week. But if you pick the PvP gear, your other content is going to suffer.
They’ve already designed the vault system to specialize characters in one of 3 content paths. The problem is they haven’t fully COMMITTED to that design by making gearing paths completely independent. If they did, trying to grab a balance of weekly gear from the vault will mathematically put you behind someone who specialized, even if the ripcord was pulled. So this isn’t a covenant problem really, it’s a committal problem from Blizzard.
Agree. So why is this a problem with covenants again? This whole thread should just be “give us parallel gearing paths!” and your entire post is resolved instantly, while letting me have the specialization that I want.
You can’t discuss the motivation for the covenant system without talking about this topic. They’re fundamentally connected. The precedent for flexible talents means that if Blizzard wants an inflexible system to differentiate players, then the system has to go “on top” of talents. Oh that’s the covenant system!
Yeah but that can’t happen, see the post I just responded to. People want their class to “be good” in every aspect of the game, in every situation in the game. If people can’t even be happy with their character being like 8% unoptimal in some area in the game, purely due to covenant choice, LIKE HELL will they consent to their character being like 20-30% less optimal in some area of the game because of their class choice. It’s not going to happen unless Blizzard starts breaking people.
You just need to think more deeply about how these topics are connected. I’m flabbergasted that it’s not blatantly obvious to you.
#pulltheripcord
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