Oh no, an actual consequence that can’t be erased. Better run to Blizzard and take this RPG out of my MOBA gameplay.
Honestly I don’t really care about the RP part of the game. It doesn’t bother me at all. What bothers me is not being able to do the highest content, and locking the covenants does that. Unlocking the covenants doesn’t remove the RPG aspect of the game. At all.
I wouldn’t mind if I picked the covenant and it was never buffed or nerfed. But yeah if it’s going to take me 3 weeks to switch and it’s going to be nerfed randomly by 50%, then yeah that pisses me off
Exactly this. Consequences exist in either case - but a flexible system allows those consequences to exist on a content-by-content basis.
When the game has so many kinds of content, and so many variables at play - that flexibility means the world to a lot of players.
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Yea. It does. Erasing consequences makes choices meaningless. Removing boundaries utterly destroys identity; joining a Covenant would be an empty gesture.
Why bother having Covenants at all then?
Join the club. Every time I have someone screeching in my ear that my Rockbiter build isn’t ‘optimal’ pisses me off too.
Agreed. This is the issue with WoW. It brought a lot of gamers into the genre that don’t belong in the genre. These players push to change the genre into something it’s not supposed to be. Blizzard has caved to cater to this crowd and it’s only hurt the game and the genre more because of it. I appreciate that Ion is making an attempt to move WoW back towards what it should be, being a game existing in the MMORPG genre.
I honestly feel that the people who don’t enjoy what MMORPG’s are should just go to the genres that are meant for them and quit trying to ruin the genre we’ve loved for 22 years. I suggest FPS, MOBA’s, and ARPG’s like Diablo 3.
Did you not read anything that was said previous or are you just ignoring it because it suits you? Just because you don’t see consequence in choices doesn’t mean they aren’t there. You are accepting the consequence that your rockbiter build isn’t as good. You think that you are alone in this, but I play with an enh shaman who plays rockbiter in +20s during explosive week because it’s the only way to one shot them. He accepts this dps loss as a consequence of his choice.
Covenants should be a transmog/title/Torghast choice. They should not be randomly assigned to player power. The abilities should’ve been a new talent row or just something to do with the shadowlands they should never have been tied to covenants.
I read it and it was wrong.
I’m accepting the consequence that the rockbiter build isn’t as good in AoE situations, but does better in single target.
That’s not a consequence. That’s an inconvenience. Your friend is inconvenienced that he has to Rockbiter in some situations.
Inconveniences are temporary. Consequences are permanent (or in MMO circles, requires an exchange).
Again, it’s the MOBA mentality rearing it’s head. MOBA players are inconvenienced when they’re countered, but can easily swap their items to side-step the obstruction.
They’re not randomly assigned. The abilities are literally sculpted to fit their corresponding Covenant. Making them inconsequential sucks any and all uniqueness from them.
MMORPG’s has always had this problem between people who lean heavily towards choosing their character and it’s build based on roleplay reasons and people who choose based on what’s best. That’s why there’s always been a comprise that doesn’t or didn’t exist in single-player RPG’s. That compromise is the ability to change your mind.
The ability to change your mind has to be balanced or the game game leans to heavy towards one side of the player-base or the other. Games with a healthy balance makes changing your mind costly, either through a huge gold sink, which results in a grind, or another type of grind that’s equally time-consuming.
When it’s in balance, the min/max camp has to accept all types of player builds in order to fill their raids and pvp groups. With the direction WoW has gone, the ability to change your mind has become instantaneous. This has lead to the min/max types being able to force their attitude on the other camp if they want a group invite, which is against the spirit of MMO’s, which encourage cooperative play to overcome the games challenges.
The reason why people are pushing so hard against having covenants change is because the imbalance has been out of whack for so long and this is the first time in ages that there’s been any game design decisions that affect character building that’s been in favor of the RPG camp (hard choices). The competitive player camp is pushing back against this hard, because they’ve become accustomed to having it their way for so long, and change is hard.
Don’t be confused if you’re in the competitive camp by believing the other camp doesn’t want to progress in hard content as well, because many of us do. We just don’t want other players dictating how we build our characters, which a lot of times is different than the choices we’d make for our characters to have our character represent our ideal for that particular character.
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Um no, losing 10k dps in not an inconvenience 
once again showing your naivety. You are aware that most keys at a high level are timed with under a minute left? Every point of dps loss is a severe consequence and could contribute to not timing the key. Again I wouldn’t expect you to understand this but please don’t try and pretend like you do.
I often live at sub 5% hp. Every single % of healing matters when you’re doing 200k hps and people are still almost dead.
What? Find me one definition of consequence that says they are permanent? A consequence doesn’t even need to be negative lol it’s just the outcome or result of an action. Again, in this scenario, the consequence of rockbiter is that your shaman can easily kill explosives, but his overall dps is going to take a hit, an that might result in failing the key.
They are randomly assigned. You could give any of the covenants a different name and a different color and give them to another covenant and any one of them would fit into any covenant lol. They are inconsequential. They should just be a buff you gain while in the shadowlands
No, I’m not a min/maxer. You think it’s naivety because you’re achievement sniping, It’s cute, but doesn’t help your argument.
Except that he can easily switch back if it didn’t work, which makes it an inconvenience, not a consequence.
If they are inconsequential than why are you begging Blizzard to lift the restrictions then?
I’m still amazed you talk down to everyone that has a different opinion, yet you ‘the skilled player’ are demanding Blizzard to make the game easier for you about a system you just admitted was ‘inconsequential’.
That’s why no one takes peacocking Mythic players seriously.
If the norm is people complete keys 1 level lower than they have been I do not consider that anything more than a minor inconvenience which would become the norm. If you are timing your 17s but maybe with that 10k dps loss you would not then 16 is your new limit… you act like that 1 key level really matters. As you gear up you will be able to push still better keys. Yes a hard choice could keep some people from getting cutting edge. Again that is not anything but an inconvenience. Going 11/12 vs 12/12 would have basically no impact in game. It is all about changing the mind set for what is the new normal.
You thinking 10k dps being an inconvenience shows your naivety? Once again… you’ve never done hard content… how could you possibly have an opinion on it?
You cant switch in M+??? If it doesnt work, hes screwed for the entire run and we lose the key? Did you not just try and say you weren’t naive?
Because they are tied to the covenants lol. The fact that they are tied to the covenants is inconsequential, not the abilities themselves. These will be impossible to balance, will have massive swinging differences across specs and forms of content. Yes, I am asking Blizzard not to make me lose 30% output in raids because i prefer dungeons.
I dont talk down to people with a different opinion. I actually enjoy having debates with people who have knowledge of the things we’re debating. I talk down to people who say incredibly stupid things and present them as fact, when they dont know what they’re talking about.
The difference between going from a 16 to a 17 is small. The difference between a 22 and a 23 however, is extremely large. 10k in that situation is not an inconvenience. Its timing the key or not.
Again… its really annoying that people talk about high level keys having never done them. They are not the same as doing a +10 where it really doesnt matter and your friends can carry you.
Everyone in a high key has to be doing above 90-100k dps overall or the key just wont be timed. its just that simple.
I really need to have someone explain to me what the impact is in that 22 vs 23. I look at that and say so what. Your new cap is 22 instead of 23… the in-game rewards for completing a 22 vs 23 are no different. That is what I can not understand. I get the mentality you push as far as you can go. With a hard choice your distance might shrink that one key level… but that would still be you pushing as far as you can go. People are claiming they will not be viable in certain content based on their choice. If you are telling me being limited to a 22 instead of a 23 is the definition of not viable I am afraid you totally lost me.
You keep presenting these numbers like there’s a ceiling to Mythic plus keys. It’s an inconvenience because that’s what it is. If he loses the key regardless, what difference does it make on his next re-try when he can simply swap out of Rockbiter with punitive ease?
Abilities shouldn’t be balanced around your constant need to run a treadmill.
Again, you’re dismissing the RPG elements because they don’t fit into your MOBA mentality. These abilities are built into the Covenants themselves and there should be a cost to swap between them.
If Covenants are like the Aldo and Scryers from TBC, then that’s a perfect compromise.
Blizzard shouldn’t make WoW a MOBA so you can eek out more arbitrary numbers. If you really want that numbers race, just take out a calculator and head-desk it until you win.
The famous “its only alpha” approach.
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It’s actually a massive problem if you lose a key yeah. I know you don’t understand it’s all right.
Aldor and scryer had extremely minimal dps gains? The swing between these covenant abilities is going to be massive lol. There should be no cost between them because they’re going to get nerfed, there’s going to be massive differences in power between content, and really … you can RPG all you like if they’re unlocked
There is no gain in game for completing a 23 vs a 22. Design decisions should not be based around an unending growing difficulty that has zero in game implications. If it was enough dps/hps to keep someone from whatever the highest weekly reward key is then I would say it matters. Using now as an example, as long as everyone with any covenant can complete a 15 they are balanced fine. Anything above that is to see what limits you can push and has no real impact in game. That said I am fine with only slight variations such as the Scryer/Aldor from TBC.
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No it isn’t. There’s no actual ceiling. There is for you, of course, since you seem to struggle getting to 25+ Keys with all the relevant ‘competitors’. But hey, peacock all you like with that bronze medal swinging around your neck.
Then why are you asking Blizzard to make game easier for you now? It seems a bit silly that Mr. Competitive needs a content nerf before its even released.
But theyve said swapping will be possible? Doesn’t that dilute the argument of “meaningful choice”?
It’s interesting seeing how many posts it takes each pro-restriction person takes before their real reasons come out.
Bitter and jealous
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