Pugging KSH - Destro Lock Perspective

This has been my first time really diving into M+ as a lock and I’ll say it up-front: the road to KSH was way more tedious and frustrating than I even thought it would be. I’m not one of the best players in the world any longer (was part of a top 50 raid in WotLK), but I can confidently say I’m capable of clearing all content still.

Just as a baseline - I’ve cleared Zek’vir?? as Hellcaller Destro, secured AOTC before the first round of major nerfs to Ansurek, and now crossed the KSH finish line. In other words, I’m playing at the “hardcore casual” level. Here are my thoughts on warlock in its current iteration. I’m hoping the feedback will lead somewhere.

Spec-wise, I ran a Hellcaller build without Channel Demonfire, as I found that the spell caused shear in the rotation and it was problematic due to the plant-and-cast nature of it, given the need for high mobility in nearly all current M+ trash and boss fights. As such, I opted to focus on as much instant cast damage as I could muster.

At first, this seemed counterintuitive because CDF does very much up the damage done in AOE pulls on paper but, in reality, I was often clipping it to reposition or to cast shadowfury for stops. Survival and interrupts will always trump damage, especially in higher keys. But the disheartening thing is that, even with the CDF build, locks have no snap damage. Everything is ramp-up and, by the time I was fully ramped, the pack was basically dead. Realizing this, I cut CDF from the build and focused on what seems to be locks’ strength, 1-2 target damage. I still put out Cataclysm to spread Wither, but then focused on priority targets / curse of tongues. To my surprise, this yielded nearly identical damage done as if I had tried to run a focused AOE rotation on 3-8 targets. This seems … wrong.

Quite literally: Rain of Fire is useless unless there are more than 8 targets. It’s a waste of the GCD because AOE packs don’t live long enough for the damage to be done and it doesn’t do enough damage to begin with to merit a 2/3 soul shard cost, given it’s a static ground AOE. The only time it shines is when your fellow DPS members aren’t doing their job well.

Overall, the thing I noticed most was just how much more work I was having to put in to do damage when compared to other classes. Against similarly geared classes, I was always behind in any fight which has even a whisper of movement and rotational disruption. If allowed to plant and cast, I was top of the meters in boss fights by around 5%, but that experience was few and far between. Perfection of RNG yielded only a 5% difference. Meanwhile, in reality, that was only due to said other group members not also having perfect rotations during those fights. When paired against comparable players and comparable intensity, I was often 5-10% behind them while putting in what felt like double the effort. This was made clear to me when I tried running lower keys on my ret paladin. The ease of rotation and forgiveness of non-optimal play was staggering. There was no major punishment or loss of DPS, just a slight blip on the radar. The same sort of mistakes or hesitation on lock yields sizable DPS loss.

As it stands, warlocks’ damage profile is not suitable for the M+ format when compared with the profiles of nearly every other class. There’s no wonder, in my mind, as to why we’re not even close to being “meta”, even when playing the least rampy of our builds. We’re heavily taxed (multiple shards, or shards + cooldown) for our good spells and our non-shard spells hit for, essentially, nothing. The lack of viable talents to augment our playstyle is also quite glaring. Not to mention that, to do our full damage, we need to maintain two debuffs on a given target which have less than 10 second windows (eradication, conflagration). Any primary target swapping is noticeably punished, even when running havoc due to the % damage loss in the cleave. In fact, we’re incentivized to stick to one target and cleave only with havoc or its partner talent. We’re still capable of doing respectable damage, but a high degree of attentiveness and dumb luck with mechanics is all but required.

Now onto the social aspect: group formation. Obviously, tier lists aren’t going anywhere and have a significant impact on the opinion of the player base as it relates to classes which do not land in the “meta” category. I would love to say “take the player, not the class” but that’s really not smart if you’re expressly looking to push or have a better chance at a smooth run. As it currently stands, warlocks are a BIG gamble in terms of M+. Even the best of the best of us will bring less to the table than specs like ret paladin, enh/ele shaman, hunter, and evoker.

We can’t summon in M+, so we can’t help reduce runback time for small deaths. Healthstones are only good when people actually use them or have them macroed into their defensives. Our interrupt is one of the longest CD variants. Our AOE stun has an absurdly long CD, short duration, and a cast time. Fear is nearly unusable due to dungeon density, though is useful as a casted stop on mobs in an AOE pack. Demon Gate’s reuse CD is so long that it’s only really good for skipping choice trash packs. Really, the only utility we have which isn’t dependant on others using it (and is actually objectively good) is Curse of Tongues / Curse of the Satyr).

It’s no surprise that securing a spot in an M+ group at +8 and above is like pulling teeth. Even trying to run my own keys was an exercise in patience. I often found that the only times I was able to secure group invites was from people who were either unaware or unconcerned about meta classes (or perhaps impatient and simply wanting to get moving). I would love to say this is unique to warlock, but I know it’s true of the experience of DPS warriors and monks and any other class which has the negativity of the meta hanging over them.

It’s possible to get KSH on any class. I’m living proof of that. However, doing so on a non-meta class is an exercise in masochism. Actually, scratch that, a masochist would enjoy the pain.

If you’re wanting to get your KSH, I can’t recommend warlock at this time. It was an unenjoyable slog and took 2 weeks longer than I had reasonably expected for the reasons I outlined above. Now that I’m done with KSH, the only reason to do M+ again is to farm out my remaining allotment of Gilded crests at +8, not for fun and certainly not to push. I imagine having a dedicated team would have given me a completely different social experience, but the class issues I mentioned above are still quite glaring.

Thanks for your time and I hope this leads to positive change for the class I so dearly love.

10 Likes

I don’t often read the longer posts as I’m on mobile. But this was formatted well and a good read. Thank you

2 Likes

Pretty much sums it all up. Sad state of Warlocks.

1 Like

I’m curious about dropping the CDF.
I like the fantasy but having to move mid channel irks me.

1 Like

That’s what I learned to a point. The amount of effort you have to put into things for this class ie:rotations/getting groups/hell our class tree talents picks are not worth it.

Sure you can make it work but the drawbacks are too heavy. One question I have is why isn’t the warlock dev modernizing these things.

How come we still need 2 people to help summon, at this point this should have been reduced to only needing 1 person?? Why does the class tree still have 8 talent nodes that require 2 points in each node?? Why are we still held to a plant cast design when it seems they themselves have abandon that?? Why does demo still have a cast on its major demon CD??? Why is the reduced cast time for soulstone a talent point??? Why is our main defensive still at a 3 min cd??? Is not an immune to all things :thinking:

1 Like

While every build picks the greater defence, I choose the 45s less CD.
Because since I play mostly Diabolist, it’s also a heal and I find myself free to use it more often after taking damage… rather than holding off on it “in case” I need it for something else, but dying because I didn’t use it.

1 Like

Yeah, the raw numbers favor CDF. However, it only seems to outshine other builds when everything goes perfectly. In essence, for my playstyle of being as nimble and flexible for mechanics as possible, it just doesn’t cut the proverbial mustard.

Why CDF isn’t able to be channeled while moving is beyond me.

And thanks, Lavits! I’m hoping this thread will join in the chorus of others on this forum to help provide the constructive criticism and feedback to move warlock into line with more modern design.

CDF should really be castable while moving. Would be a nice QoL for Destro.

3 Likes

The low hanging fruit answer to your question is fairly simple: there is currently no dedicated developer for Warlock. The mage dev moonlights as our class lead, though.

CDF does hit decently hard but the main draw of it is to ensure Immo/Wither isn’t dropping between Cata cycles. If everything is dying super fast in your keys I would still opt to run CDF as Hellcaller because Wither/BS is typically like 30% or more of your damage and your other options are typically ramping or straight up bad.

If you’re not someone who raids or does high keys, you’re better off running Crashing Chaos, Chaos Incarnate, and using double Dawnthread as your embellishment to cut down on the ramp. Even then, if I was doing anything below a 12 I’d prob run a Diabolist single target build with Mayhem slotted in and just machine gun a primary target to cleave off of so packs die more evenly.

Grats on KSH. Playing non-meta frequently turns into “playing the queue” versus actually playing keys, so it’s good you were able to persevere through all that mess. The amount of meta slavery in the 10-12 key range is disheartening.

While I understand balance cannot be perfect and there’s a lot of community perception issues, it would be nice to see Blizzard do more to bring 5-man utility into a closer parity without homogenizing things too much.

1 Like

Yeah this is good feedback. The spell has been buffed so many times but doesn’t feel fantastic to press. I wonder if them buffing it even more and having it line up with cata cd (while also increasing our immolate refresh) would make it feel more impactful. I’d rather cast it less but have it be more impactful. There is also the feedback that demonfire mastery should also allow it to be casted on the move.

This is a huge part (small part) of why destruction shines in non-pug comps, and has for a while. It’s so much easier if other people who don’t have ramping dps or can do insta snap dps, are more valuable in dungeons. Letting others do important stops before you is insane value (obv not in pugs). It also much harder to line up cds compared to melee who have high snap aoe dps anyway (literally all melee btw).

I think this is a tiny bit overexagerated (not trying to say your experience is wrong btw, it’s not). Having a main aoe ability that has to do damage over time while also being a ground effect, while also relying on tanks seems like a huge issue. It’s also extremely unintuitive for newer players who don’t know it stacks (literally one of the most asked newbie destro questions btw). On the whole though, having a completely uncapped aoe spell is actually quite good as keys scale higher in difficulty. It’s also a really good press in general considering how high our shard gen is in M+.

One of the talked about solutions is making rof a shard drain instead of a shard cost that just automatically did damage instead having it be placed.

  1. You could make it so that rof followed the target debuff style like ravager
  2. Players wouldn’t have to spam a keybind macro on a targeted ability constantly
  3. Opens up more opportunities to make more of the destro kit shine instead of just rof in mass aoe.

I think the caveat here is specifically pugs (I know this is specifically a pug post, no flame promise). It’s honestly not terrible in coordinated groups. The problem is that you could juice our damage and we still wouldn’t be taken outside of MDI comps because our utility isn’t as good as shaman or rogue for instance. Luckily our damage is actually so borderline extreme in some niche cases (not to mention disc + pi is meta atm) that it might bleed into next tier if we get some compensatory buffs or our tier set is good (just look at MDI, which has no bearing on pugging but is usually a bleeding edge case).

Big plus on this one. I don’t even reccomend warlock to any newer players or any people looking to reroll now either, for raid or m+.

  1. It’s incredibly hard to optimize damage in raid
  2. is conditional in m+
  3. has no big draw to be taken in dungeon groups. If curses were auto applied by a spell or could be shadowburned it would be extremely good for pugs though.
  4. The class just isn’t fun compared to how fast paced melee is. They hook newers players in with the class fantasy, but when they try out ret paladin, for instance, most people don’t like playing warlock again.

Not to mention 2/3 of our specs ( demo + aff ) just play extremely poorly. Just go melee and have fun in the game honestly (which is what I’ve done for my alts).

2 Likes

I appreciate the detailed response! My tone can be a little scathing here and there, but it’s because of the frustration more than anger. The skill floor is so high for warlock in M+, compared to basically every other DPS class that I’ve tried this expac, and the reward for good play is middling at best, in my experience. :cry:

1 Like

Thanks for the post!

We need some more detailed feedback that isn’t just “warlock sucks, blizz bad” type stuff, and this was a great read.

Scathing is fine considering warlock does have a very high skill floor. I’m fine with a high skill ceiling, but they really need to take a look at how to modernize the specs to not make them feel so ancient when people try and pick them up – our thematic is so great, it’s really dissapointing when it’s not fun to play.

Tangent coming up, somewhat related to M+, but also the class in general (since you mentioned skill floor).

I’ll try and sum up some reasons why it’s not fun for me atm. I’ll preface this by saying that I’ve been playing warlock either as a main or main alt for years at top 50 world mythic, so that’s where my bias lies.


Destruction

  1. Isn’t streamlined enough, if you compare how much goes into destruction versus other comparable “easy” specs from pure dps classes, it’s actually really involved and has a significant skill gap. Making rain of fire auto maintained or like old rushing jade wind is fine. Making fire and brimstone more prevelant is also fine.
  2. Shards have lost their flavour after the transition from burning embers. They also lost how impactful chaos bolt really was.
  3. Chaos bolt is cast so incredibly often that logs put it as a significant portion of our damage, yet it still doesn’t feel as impactful as it once did (big damage hit). I’d rather cast less chaos bolt, but have massive bolts than significantly more bolts and leaning too far into that fantasy.
  4. Rain of fire is just unintuitive and isn’t “fun” as a main aoe ability. I’d much rather have something visually flavourful like aoe chaos bolt or something that fills my screen instead of something I can barely tell gets cast by my character. Something preferably not placed on the ground please.

Affliction

  1. They did such a great job this expansion at streamlining affliction and making rapture more defined, but dots still feel like a means to an end instead of the theme of the spec
  2. When I pick affliction, I think that I’ll be doing massive “chip” (as in lots of damage events quickly) damage instead of big bursts of damage. As much as rapture is useful for every scenario, it doesn’t fit this theme for me
  3. Pigeonholing affliction into the same niche as shadow (cull the weak = pyschic link) also causes the demise of affliction tuning. You can’t make rapture strong because of cull the weak, you can’t make dots strong because of uncapped aoe – it’s a tuning nightmare to get right.
  4. I’d rather affliction be the master of applying and using dots, than the master of dots. Meaning that I’d rather dots be easier to apply and participate in our damage than being a class that uses the most globals on dots. Make rapture affect my dots, don’t make my dots affect rapture – it’s annoying now.

Demonology

  1. Tyrant needs a redesign straight up. If reign of tyranny was just deleted from the game, and that damage was baked in baseline I’d be happy at the minimum. Having our damage be so tied to tyrant setups is tedious, and is past it’s due date.
  2. I was one of the few that first pitched the idea of lowering our demonic cores, and I’m happy I’m wrong about the whole situation. On the other hand, there needs to be something that doesn’t make doom a complete auto pick in our capstone section, and to not make demonbolt so overwhelmingly good (aside from resource generation). Similarly, the felguard talents just suck and are completely passive, make something that isn’t “unseen” but might be passive in this spot. I wouldn’t even mind a portal that we place on the ground that just summons demons automatically every X shard used, but is just permanently placed like a totem.
  3. We have a lot of casts, either do something to make us cast while moving, or reduce the cast time on some of the pet summoning. I’d rather take the beast master model than our current one.
1 Like

There are small QoL changes that I miss or needs to happen.

eg
Shadowfury cast time and 1min CD
Long cast time of our demons.
Pet buffs long gone
Pets despawning crossing bridges

And general issues like cast time on trinkets and abilities on the GCD that requires 4 button presses.

1 Like