PTR testing

Classes Death Knight
1

After testing the fixed soulreaper and the increased froststrike cost on the PTR I noticed one thing you guys should prepare for which is resource starvation

A lot of people right now will tell you we are flooded in resources well come next patch with all the changes its gonna be the opposite. The insane increase to killing machines overall paired with soulreaper being a great rotational ability to weave obliterate with inside the proper windows is gonna leave you starved of runes sitting on a proc or 2 KM most cases

And the froststrike increase to its runic cost means less froststrikes overall to generate runes with

These changes are all great dont get me wrong, But with all of this in mind I want to discuss a couple of things we need to think about going forward

#1 Froststrike now that it costs 30 RP you only get 3 uses. Was the 10% buff enough for that 3rd froststrike to equate to a previous 4 uses?

Because if we are getting less froststrikes, less CBR, and less icecap chances, I should expect to see a much larger than 10% buff to compensate for 3 overall losses

You lose 1 chance on farming a rune

1 froststrike in total

and any icecap value you wouldve got from those froststrikes

I feel as though for increasing the cost to 30 the ability shouldve been buffed far more than just 10%

And #2 runes. Since we are gonna be more often rune starved this is a perfect oppertunity to increase the value of certain talents like runic command and horn of winter

I feel like horn of winter shouldnt be on the GCD. Thats probably the most simple first step for the ability as anything else would revolve around directly increasing its power rather than its ability to squeeze into our rotation

You could buff some aspect of it to provide a damage increase but my only fear is that this promotes using it solely as a dps button and ignoring the resource generation entirely. And if it does get a damage component i feel like it should be an increase to froststrike and howling blast before obliterate

I highly recommend some of you hop on the ptr and do some extensive rotational testing with all the new changes and see for yourself if you think we need to start readdressing our resources and talents revolving around them in preparation for a famine meta

Edit: These overall are still all buffs, We just wont be resource flooded we’ll be starved, But nonetheless we will still be more powerful and more of a threat than previously

3 Likes
2

This whole quote is why I think Frost Strike’s Resource Cost should have been left alone.

It’s not like we gain more Runic Power from spending Runes unless we use Rune of Hysteria.

It’s not like we are protected from failed Runic Empowerment procs for less amount of global chances to restore a rune.

It’s not like we feel good about spamming Frost Strike to restore a rune for even a lesser chance because by that time you fish for one, it’s probably naturally recharged.

RNG being a cruel joke, the reasoning why they increase the RP cost of Frost Strike is beyond me. Because that ironically makes RP feels WORSE to spend.

I dunno man. I agree with Horn of Winter should not being on GCD (as of Power Siphon for Warlocks and the like). The analysis of increasing the worth of Runic Command, not so much.

1 Like
3

Left alone sure, But changing it in this direction doesnt have to be a bad thing, It will end up being a bad thing if proper changes arent made to account for the loss of overall froststrike uses

10% for example is definitely not a large enough increase to justify the runic power cost increase from both a mechanical and pure damage standpoint

Its a mechanical downgrade which should only come if a large damage gain is to be had

Less icecap, less cold blooded rage, Less chance to farm rune, Would all be fine if the ability got a 30% buff to compensate

10% though, is very insignificant compared to what was just indirectly nerfed as a result of increased cost

Its still a net gain though with every other change in mind imo. But its gonna be the weirdest change we’ve got that shouldve been handled slightly more favorably with raw % tuning

This is part of why im okay with the increase to RP though, Means less froststrike spam in succession but as said above that has to also come with the increased weight behind each use of the button

I didnt say anything about runic command other than since we are about to be starved for resources, its a good time to reconsider the talent for changes since it directly is tied to our resources

4

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/1007-frost-dk-feedback/1520216

Some possible reasoning for the upped cost. Fatal fixation was causing even more RP waste supposedly.

5

Im glad the PvE backs changes like this up as well, because the increase was already arguably the best thing that couldve happened for pvp also, I just want froststrike to actually have some umph behind its hits now

Buff it more! And nerf shattering blade by an equal %

1 Like
6

That’s… Interesting. If we are flooded with RP as a resource that result in overflowed RP being a waste, then maybe there should be a premium ability for Runic Power or an RP sink and not touch an existing ability with a perfectly balanced RP cost?

Like I kinda get what they’re trying to remedy of flooding RP. But increasing FS cost is just simply not it in my eyes. Or maybe it is, who the heck knows. I’m probably not gonna like the RNG aspect of Runic Empowerment EVEN more and deal with Rune Starvation.

Damage buff is just damage. I do agree that Frost Strike need to have more weight overall for Frost.

This is resource management and efficiency though. I would be actually happy with the RP cost increase if Runic Empowerment has something to protect against failed procs. But then it comes back to Runes being flooded and that’s a headache to think about. :unamused:

I was refering to this statement:

While the statement is true about increasing RP capacity may have more value with this change, I don’t think the talent is any better than uhh… literally any other Frost talent in the tree?

Do enlighten me though, because if our resource efficiency is bad enough to consider taking Runic Command an effective tactic available, without making RP a better resource feel to spend then… I don’t know what does the future hold for Frost DK.

idk, maybe I’m a bit pessimistic about it. I’m REALLY sad that Frost Strike RP has been touched while it could have literally any other buffs like the damage increase and called it there. Making Enduring Strength include it or something. And HoW… needs to not cost a Global because now it’s a talent worth considering because of this silly change.

On a flip side, if we are flooded with RP and Runes, HoW will never be picked so I guess there is a different PoV.

7

Thats quite literally why i said

Its not gonna be worth considering, thats why i said its time to address it because if in a famine meta a talent designed to alleviate that exact problem still doesnt become good its indicative that its just flat out bad and needs buffs/reworks

An idea just dawned on me though

What if we changed shattering blade completely, Rather than consuming 5 stacks of razorice to increase its damage. What if it was like a passive runic drain that each tick increased froststrikes damage progressively? That way you could focus on Obliterate and howling blast while using runic power passively to build up powerful froststrikes?

Just an idea. If runic power bloat is an issue it seems like either froststrike needs to be buffed to be strong enough to want to dump RP using it, Or we need more ways to actually expend runic power on smaller scales while we focus on other important rotational buttons like obliterate

See BoS itself isnt bad because its a runic drain, Its bad because it oversteps boundaries by being good for ST also

But runic drains themselves actually seem kinda good for a class like dk so how should we implement them?

EDIT: The runic power bloat thing is sometimes an issue in pvp, But after the changes go live it will be hard to tell if we’re gonna be bloated or not. From my testing on ptr it seems like im resource starved often but before i resource starve i do overcap on runic power from burst so its interesting to think about how maybe a passive runic drain that buffs froststrike would work over shattering blade

It would allow 2h builds to benefit from the talent rather than almost exclusively duel wield builds

1 Like
8

I have an idea for the CBR: If you have 50 RP (well 60 RP in this upcoming PTR) and have a fully depleted rune, your Frost Strike will trigger another Frost Strike. (and costs 1 point instead of 2 points)

Basically two FS in one global with double the chance of getting your rune back.

SOMETHING like this. A premium RP dump.

9

The only reason id dislike this would be because i wouldnt be able to control when i wanted the premium 60RP froststrike, and therefore might not be able to deathstrike when necessary if such a thing happens

But from a raw dps perspective the idea works. We gotta start brainstorming

1 Like
10

AWWW I was so close!!!

Yea, Death Strike in PvP, need to consider that too. ><

11

Its the right idea trust me, I mean im sure you remember me suggesting they add a runic power execute

When i talked about that i said i wanted the execute to be a massive runic dump what you suggested isnt far off of that its just basically a double froststrike

And what you suggested is rather good, choosing between healing and damage is very healthy but id just like that choice to be seperated by a different button rather than sometimes this button costs 30, and sometimes it costs 60 which means sometimes i might not want the 60 cost and get it anyway and hurt myself doing so

If they were seperated by a different button at least if i pressed the 60 button and then died itd be my fault for pressing the 60 over the 30

1 Like
12

I do actually! I kinda forgot what it was though. But mine was a Massive RP sink that summons a giant chunk of ice that deals a massive Frost damage in an area based on RP spent and the primary target’s missing health. An AoE Execute. It’s the Slab Avalanche. An idea I shared with Frostingale, another poster here.

Also the fact that we rely on Death Strike to survive kind of reminds me of Blood DK gameplay. So… Maybe we should have something that we can survive off of runes? But that is also mutually exclusive to Obliterate.

Or maybe a Permafrost rework… Tough call. :thinking:

There’s gotta be something for Frost’s survivability in PvP though because I think PvP nerfs hurt Frost the most. This is an area i’m not particularly strong in though. :frowning:

13

It never existed really, i just said make soulreaper a rp cost and make it work different for frost than unholy

I wanted a instant proc soulreaper that cost high runic power but we got killing machine soulreaper instead

I just made a recommendation on another post for frostscythe to become an AoE execute ability scaling off the enemies missing health progressively

lower hp harder the scythe hits for

Been saying this the whole time, Unnerf deathstrike completely

If not that then im expecting some serious honor talent reworks for DK because having literally so many dead talents is arguably part of the issue

The only defensive honortalents we had got either pruned or super ultra nerfed into the dirt like spellwarden

This whole time all the dk players have been saying to just straight prune and replace spellwarden because the nerfs put it in its grave as is and it was never a healthy ability to begin with

The best thing that can happen for DK survivability is honor talents. No more boring 8% damage here, -8% haste here

Give us real respectable talents man.

Death Siphon: Ranged spellcasted self heal no dodge or parry

Transfusion: Deathstrike cost reduction, Small runic power grant

Improved lichborne: Damage reduction element or greatly increased leech element in exchange for removing CC break but keeping the undead effect that prevents certain cc types (So you couldnt lichborne out of a fear, But you still couldnt be polymorphed because you cant poly undead targets)

Conversion: 3% health per second for 5-6 runic power

Blood presence: +20% stamina -20% damage taken -15% damage dealt -25% runic power generation

Icebound heal: Deathstrike healing increased by 100% during icebound fortitude

14

There are ideas floating about Frostscythe that drastically change the ability like making it 2 runes instead of 1 with a greater impact. Maybe it’s me with Horrific Vision goggles but discussions about Frostscythe makes me miss 8.3 Frost very much.

It seems like you are quite content with Soul Reaper giving Killing Machine though! I am quite happy for you that it eventually happened.

As for respectable talents, I wonder if our class DK talent rework is in order along with PvP talents. Like maybe:

  • Frost Strike gives you a shield equal to its damage done?
  • Permafrost Rework that Frost Dks can get Improved Permafrost as a PvP talent? A passive DR?
  • IBF 40% DR instead of 30%? I don’t know why Unending Resolve is 40%. But it’s warlocks we’re talking about and I want this cyborg to be more durable than a demon summoning witch. :joy: (Inb4 Stun immune? Well Unending Resolve has kick immune, poor comparison but it is what it is. We are DEATH KNIGHTS for crying out loud! We should be incredibly unyielding.)
  • Tundra Stalker? (Not really needed but an idea nonetheless)
  • Yeet Sacrificial Pact into Death Pact to not give healing absorption anymore unless there is no Timmy to Sac. Basically OLD Death Pact. Back the way it was and compensate the loss of Sac Pact elsewhere?
  • Death Siphon/Conversion Choice Node?
  • All those ideas about Imp. Lich, Transfusion, Blood Presence (actually Presences in general) are very nice.
1 Like
15

I was looking for them to increase FS cost 100% bc we were pretty much wasting half if not more of our RP. However 10% feels insignificant, I was thinking on a 20% at least.

The problem is that you can’t buff FS too much bc of shattering… At this point Devs should’ve noticed that SB is nerfing FS by too much.

16

Yeah 10% is very insignificant and thats after i already considered it just got a 10% buff

The total net buff for frost is 20% and +5 runic power

For the increased cost the total buff shouldve been in the 40-60 range

And yes like you mention shattering blade should be nerfed by the same % you end up buffing froststrike from this point forward

17

Absolutely not. They increased the resource cost by 20% while increasing the damage by only 10%. Im very disappointed in this change. At a minimum the damage increase should match the cost increase if not more so due to the interactions you mentioned such as rune procs.

18

Isn’t the rune proc chance still the same because it’s 2% chance per RP spent. So now we are actually gaining an extra 10% chance to proc a rune per global.

I would like to see more dmg put into FS baseline and buff DS healing so RP feels more valuable to spend and the choice between DS and FS feels meaningful.

1 Like
19

You get way more value out of frost strike now, so much less RP is being wasted and goes into chance to get a rune. The RP cost increase was a dps increase even without the +10% damage.

21

Oh yeah that’s a good point. I didn’t think it through fully.