No matter how pragmatism is defined, there is no way following the guidance of a dagger found in front of N’zoth is pragmatic. That will not turn out well. (even in a non-mmo setting those things never turn out well and the wow lore supports it being a horrible idea).
The only way it’s even slightly pragmatic is if she has a deal with N’zoth.
“I like deals…”
It’s basically what I’m banking on. Especially with her already bargaining with Helya, who’s possibly in bed with the Old Gods, herself. Sylvanas may have cut out the middle man, after that business with the lantern fell through.
If they really are going to go through with Thros being part of the Nightmare, she may have bargained for her own corner of the Shadowlands. Which might tie back to Varicella’s point.
Utilitarianism is a stepping stone to evil in many stories.
I suspect she’s getting Garrosh’d, the whole “Weaponizing evil artifacts/relics/power that you’ve convinced yourself isn’t corrupting you” isn’t a new story, and it often ends the same way.
So with all the datamined stuff so far, it seems that there are a few things about Sylvanas’s actions that we can conclude.
A) She sent the fleet into Azshara’s trap as bait knowing what would happen. Lor’themar’s presence was probably more ‘weeding out traitors’ as Sylvanas expected high casualties.
B) Nathanos had a mission in Naz’jatar which he head out on while Horde players help survivors.
C) The Horde Player has some important role in Sylvanas’s grand plan.
D) The war seems to be more a means to an end than the focus of Sylvanas’s plan. The reason she is probably less bothered by past losses is only the continuation of the war is important, not military victory. She states that the War is serving it’s purpose.
E) Nathanos implies that Sylvanas allowed Baines rescuers to get away saying that it was galling to let them believe they had gotten away with it. There is also reference to an Alchemist Spiteblood so there might be some hidden aspect to her trap.
F) Whatever her endgame, Sylvanas is almost ready for it.
I suspect whatever twist we are going to get will be whatever plot Sylvanas has coming to fruition. Personally I suspect that won’t be a Kerrigan moment but god knows at this point. She seems to genuinely see Baine and Saurfang’s lot as traitors so I don’t see a sudden change of attitude towards them.
Maybe Sylvanas wants to free N’Zoth so she can kill him permanently, and that while imprisoned he’s effectively immortal. He and the Black Empire need to be phased back into the material realm before he can be permanently killed.
How the War factors into it as a means to an end is unknown to me.
Maybe N’zoth’s influence is at its most potent when influencing idle/unfocused minds, and with everyone consumed/hyper focused with the tragedies of war his influence was minimal at best? It would explain why she’s so averse to peace: in peace time N’zoth has more ability to manipulate/cause infighting among the mortal races of Azeroth? I have no idea.
Sylvanas’s keikaku will be some asspull, I’m sure.
There is not a single thing that suggests Sylvanas would be altruistic like that. Just look at how she thought of Magni in BtS for instance.
I could see a scenario where the forces of death are against the Void however.
Let me get this straight…
Sylvanas tells Nathanos and the Horde PC about this plan to lure the Alliance into a trap by just following the talking knife…a plan that will most likely sacrifice what remains of their fleet, along with all the Horde soldiers on the ship, plus at least two ‘disloyal’ racial leaders (Lor’themar and Thalyssra) and Occuleth. And…this isn’t to win the war but to forward Sylvanas’s secret goal we just gotta trust her on.
Hopefully this little conversation is just for Sylvanas loyalists. If not, than those who oppose her are just “going along with it”, with the possibility of getting your own leader killed (if you’re an elf). First we just hand Xal’atath over to Sylvanas for some reason and now this? If my character is trying to stop Sylvanas’s schemes, she’s doing a poor job of it.
There’s far too much “just go with it” in the Horde story. Sylvanas loyalists regularly have to kill others that are still loyal to the Warchief. They have to help the rebels with freeing Derek Proudmoore and now Baine. Those who oppose Sylvanas just keep handing her the means to inch closer to her final “endgame”. Regardless of their “choice”, the Horde PC is being bounced around between two extremes: help Sylvanas further her goal no matter the cost, and help the ones who want to stop her. The only way I can make sense of all this is to imagine N’Zoth began mind controlling my character at the beginning of WoT, and he finds amusement in bouncing her back and forth between these two Horde factions, trying to play them off each other. He’s clearly trying to drive her insane so she’ll run into his open arms, and finally embrace the true leader of Azeroth!
Unless she has found a way to raise them again into undeath, which she already has. And considering the undead seem attracted to her ultimate goal, it means she doesnt actually lose champions, but gains 100% loyal new minions.
The new datamined text implies that Sylvanas has some kind of long play she is going for and very much expected Baine to be freed. It would make a bit more sense since she is very much an ‘arrows in her quiver’ kind of general and if they get people to behave how she wants she could see it as a necessary sacrifice. After all the Sunreavers trying to stop Baine being freed does make it a lot more authentic.
I suspect it is. There is also dialog on the docks with Nathanos giving the player orders to embark. Curiously he makes a point of saying what is done next, is done for the Horde.
Regardless I suspect whatever the twist to come is ties to whatever Sylvanas’s plan is cause her dialog to Nathanos says ''The threads we have woven with such care will soon be drawn together. The war is serving its Purpose. Stay focused on the endgame. You know what is to come."
Blizzard has a lot riding on this “unexpected twist” but I’m really not expecting much to feel satisfying.
Too much cloak and daggers has gone on for way too long.
Got to disagree. One of the biggest problems of this expansion is the lack of ‘cloak and dagger.’. Everything has been bizarrely straightforward and exactly what it appeared to be, despite blizz folks stating (outside the game) that it was ‘for realzies’ morally ambiguous.
Despite all evidence to the contrary.
I’m mostly referring to Sylvanas who is the main character carrying this expansion. Too much mystery with no nuance nor intrigue. I know the reveal is coming, but I think they’ve made a mistake by holding back so much for so long.
Again, what mystery? Sylvanas is waving a black hat, has been all along. It doesn’t matter if there is an old god in the hat or not.
Honestly, other than prologue, Sylvie has been irrelevant to this expansion.
We kill random crap in the lands of our allies and your allies, and sometimes both sides fight each other, and we trade bases in old zones for no apparent reason.
If she has a brain slug, that still all happens, because there is nothing else to do.
The whole Horde campaign is following the Banshee Queen’s orders via Nathanos. She’s the main the driver of conflict and yet her motivations through it all remain a mystery minus the vague declaration that: “All will serve me in the end.”
What does that even mean? Is it referring to her position as Warchief? Does she intend to become the Queen of Death? Why did Alleria hear voices to kill her…it’s a huge mess.
She was the instigator of the conflict, she doesn’t drive it. The stormsong questline made it really clear that the driver’s seat belongs to N’Zoth.
As for the rest, there isn’t a single reason to assume she doesn’t mean exactly what she says: everybody needs to die and serve Sylvanas. That is how much of a caricature she has become.
I agree with both Bloddryn and Helena here.
Sylvanas’s motivations are irritatingly vague, and also don’t matter.
What if her ultimate goal is killing the world soul to empower herself/the “death god” that they may have made a bargain with, and N’Zoth is merely a red herring and/or a way to kill the world soul permanently?
Imo it’s N’zoth she needs to kill for this to happen.
Nope. Why would I agree to something that could turn out lots of ways? I mean, did you see “Draenor is free!” coming?