So with the new pre-patch for Dragonflight, I’ve noticed for Protection Paladins – The ‘Avenger’s Shield’ doesn’t generate Holy Power anymore?
I figured initially “Oh that’s okay, it’s probably just in a talent somewhere.” but nope.
I mean even the ‘Divine Toll’ spell you can still choose in your talents says holy power is generated from each of the Avenger’s Shields per target hit (since it throws out multiple) - so it made me curious to whether or not it was an accidental change where they forgot to whack in on the singular Avenger’s Shield spell …
Personally, I rather liked having Avenger’s Shield as a Holy Power generator and it seems somewhat irksome to the playstyle I rather enjoyed without it.
I understand everyone has their own playstyles and sure, there’s probably some of you completely unbothered about it who sway from little to exorbitant revamps made to the classes and game time to time - but does anyone else like myself feel kind of irked or odd about it?
If you had followed the development in beta. Then you would have know that Avenger’s Shield was purposely changed not going to generate holy power anymore. For some erroneous reasoning about lowering holy power generation and Shield of the Righteous up time.
The problem with Avenger’s Shield generating Holy Power is that it would make taking Divine Toll pretty much mandatory. By removing the Holy Power generation it opens up the rest of the tree as viable options.
Avenger’s Shield and Divine Toll still interrupt which is a major benefit.
Avenger’s Shield and Divine Toll also still gain an absorb shield based on damage dealt if talented.
The change to not generate Holy Power puts a greater emphasis on our rotation. To be frank, you could button mash and press random buttons before and be perfectly fine. Rotation will matter now. It can feel like a drought, but a lot of that is also due to losing our Set Bonus with Judgements generating additional Holy Power. With the changes, it doesn’t feel that far off from Seasons 1-2 before set bonus was a thing.
Because being able to indiscriminately spam random abilities and still be able to bash SotR with such high frequency that it basically never falls off is great design?
The HoPo economy for Prot was putting SotR into “Ironskin Brew” territory- and maybe even beyond- particularly once cov. legendaries were out. Ironskin Brew, if you aren’t aware, was a Brewmaster active mitigation ability- but if you simply did your rotation, you’d always have a charge available when it was about to fall off. The upshot was that a) the damage intake of the spec had to be balanced around 100% uptime, b) there wasn’t really any strategy or thought to using it, and c) it felt like a chore rather than an actual defensive ability. So it was removed. Now of course, SotR is not just part of a Paladin’s mitigation profile, it’s part of their damage profile too. So “remove it” wouldn’t be quite as simple, and I’d say the ability is also a good deal more iconic.
Think about it: if SotR nears 100% uptime, is it really still a defensive? Does it actually feel good to use it correctly, or does it just feel like a punishment if you manage to mangle your rotation and screw it up?
Now don’t get me entirely wrong: I don’t tank all that much, but I liked playing Kyrian Prot because a) it was fun, and b) because I didn’t have to think much about basic mitigation and could focus more on other things. I’m gonna have to get used to this change. I’m feeling the pain a bit. But just because you or I personally don’t like it doesn’t mean it’s “erroneous reasoning.”
Also, The beginning of expansions, protection paladin is always very squishy because of the lack of secondary stats. The up time of SOTR is never good until we get haste, which is much later typically. What I believe they’re trying to do is bake in passive mitigation so that the buttons you press are meaningful and situational as opposed to a requirement to survive. Ardent is now a true “cheat death/tank buster” CD Vs a requirement to survive a pull. Does it feel bad to not have ardent up for an entire pull? Sure, but why? Because you think you need it to survive. You think you need AS to generate holy power, because you did. It’s different, and that’s ok.
You now have the option to talent very heavily defensively early on an expansion when your stats aren’t where they should be and then ultimately very heavily offensively (if you choose to) as our secondary‘s and gear start to improve.
I also understand that people don’t like change but this is a very good change. There will now never be a cookie-cutter build that works in all scenarios optimally. Depending on content, your talent selection can drastically change now more then ever if you want to maximize your gameplay. Of course you can always just set it and forget it if your doing trivial content, but the ability to take your play to the next level with a few clicks of a button is fantastic.
Read the talents! Experiment! It’s a great start imo, and I’m having a blast!
I liked it, but I like this better. Change is good. How disappointing would it be if they created a new expansion and didn’t change things to make them more interesting. Everyone feels this way at the end of every expansion.
They hated Artifact weapons, and then hated when they removed the powers.
They hated Azerite powers, then hated the feeling without them.
They hated corruption, and then hated it when
All of the corruption bonuses were gone.
This will be great. We will have all of these new talent paths, new tier sets, and whatever else they end up implementing later on down the line to balance it all out. Trust!
May I ask specifically why you like it more? or do you just like it because its new and different?
In my opinion the rotation has no synergy with itself. SotR lasts for 4.5 seconds per use. you have about 3/4 globals to make 3 more HP. AS now competes with consecration in terms of maintaining my active mitigation. creates friction in the rotation. I shouldn’t have to take crusaders judgement and think "oh thank god my class ability procced I can now cast judgement to maintain my SotR so I don’t die mid pack.
Holy power doesn’t even make sense right now for prot if they actually wanted to slow down the spenders on the spec. Granted were sitting at end game levels of haste and I’m not gonna have around 38% when the next raid is rolling in. Then we get to see how frustrating this whole thing is after Soul bind and covenants fall off.
I’d hardly consider responding to a post (that I found while searching for answers) that’s barely a month old ‘necroing’. Especially when the information was relevant. While I’m sure it’s possible that the covenant version didn’t generate HoPo, you could still spec into it (you know since talents were a thing). And while granted, most people probably wouldn’t (unless it gave you two or you weren’t already Kyrian) you certainly could anyways.
At the very least you could see the tooltip where it said it generated HoPo and base information from there (which wasn’t happening). Which makes what I said more relevant to the conversation than anything you’ve said thusly.
So regardless, your post was entirely unnecessary (outside of the questionable nature of a ‘necro’).
Just in the future, please fact check yourself before butting in.
How was the information relavent when it was during pre-launch versus now with the full release of DF? You dug up an outdated thread, hence the necro.
Yes, both exsited at the same time. If you already had the covenant one on your bars and you also talented into it, it wouldn’t automatically switch over. It was also non-intuitive that players would go looking for the talented version of the same named spell.
You literally said:
“The problem with Avenger’s Shield generating Holy Power is that it would make taking Divine Toll pretty much mandatory. By removing the Holy Power generation it opens up the rest of the tree as viable options.”
Which was YOU talking about the talent tree, incorrectly might I add. The things you said were incorrect, I corrected you. Now you’re acting like you were talking about regular divine toll when clearly you were talking about the talents (see bold). Just stop.
See my above post. All you need to say is “Yes, I was wrong and posted incorrect information, thank you for correcting me”. It’s an understandable mistake. Me personally, I would have been looking for my second charge of divine toll and figured it out. But that’s just me and that’s irrelevant as your combativeness on this issue.
Now for this, I actually have nothing lol. I completely missed that you were the one I quoted initially. So apologies for that, I was wrong (see not so hard) and I’m sorry for telling you to butt out. Totally within your right to respond.
Again, this was all back then before I knew the Talented version provided Holy Power. You dragging this up from a month ago, pre-launch, is necroing. This topic has already been discussed and cleared out in another thread.
Just. Stop.
This conversation already happened in another thread.
LMAO my combativeness? Let’s rewind to your first post:
Except Divine Toll still gives HoPo per target hit XD
So …
In what world does that add any value to the thread other than to necro it. It doesn’t. You were the combative one from the start.
Except I didn’t find that thread, I found this one, like many others might have. You’re literally doing everything in your power to keep from admitting you were wrong. You don’t need to make excuses. It’s a simple you’re right or you’re wrong. Period. You were wrong, I corrected you (and partially wanted to know your stance on it, given correct information).
Not going to bother wasting anymore time on you or this, you’re delusional and insecure. It’s actually cringe. If you truly believe that someone; A) Disagreeing with you or better yet B) Correcting you, is combative then you have a rude awakening coming to you when you make it into the real world.
I literally gave you the out. “I was wrong, move on”. Or, with some grace, “Yeah I was wrong back then lol, my belief on that stance (with the correct information) [stands or has changed to X]”
As I said, I’m done here and I’m done responding to you until you can grow up and converse like an adult as well as own up to your mistakes and stop deflecting your insecurities on to me. Until then, have a wonderful rest of your life.
P.s. just because you think it’s ‘necroing’ a thread, doesn’t mean it is. Get over it. Isn’t like I went actively looking for threads that were ‘dead’ to bump or that I even check the dates (as usually they’re pretty well organized by recent. But sure, cling to that idea, that deflection, if that’s what helps you feel better about yourself.
Apologies for wasting anyone else’s time with this, hope those of you that find this can leave with (correct) information. Everyone else have a wonderful rest of your day/week/month/year/etc/etc
Whos making excuses. I explained already what was happening at the time which obviously means I was wrong about it. This hasn’t been about that. It’s been about your abrasive necro that added nothing of value.
Idk, you seem to feel the need to write 10 paragraphs.
Insecure… right, not the one who wrote an essay and still doesn’t get it.
I mean even the ‘Divine Toll’ spell you can still choose in your talents says holy power is generated from each of the Avenger’s Shields per target hit (since it throws out multiple) - so it made me curious to whether or not it was an accidental change where they forgot to whack in on the singular Avenger’s Shield spell …
