Proposal to include the T0.5 (Dungeon Set 2) quest line to be available during BWL release

[Åpocalypse-illidan (Åpocalypse)]

Since you’re so knowledgeable on vanilla WoW, I’m sure you remember that it was marketed as the less hardcore alternative to other mmos of the time. So something for ‘casuals’ to strive for is pretty much exactly in line with what vanilla was. All the 0.5 sets were was the dungeon sets with a second pass at stat distribution once they had time to work out how to properly stat their items.

So your attempt at an argument here is that “because Everquest (or other non WoW MMOs at the time) where less casual friendly than vanilla WoW was, that we should totally go ahead and make WoW:Classic even more casual friendly than it already was at the time”??

I mean really? That’s what you’re going with? Well great news then buddy, there’s an EVEN MORE CASUAL FRIENDLY version of WoW that’s already been released. It’s called BfA, and in BfA you barely even have to log in to get showered in entirely forgettable Epics.

And for the record, your “raiders are all that matter” attitude really really bothers me on like a fundamental level.

Do you normally find yourself bothered on a fundamental level by fundamental facts of reality? By Vanilla dev’s own admissions, Raiding wasn’t just everything the game was balanced around, it was the ONLY thing it was balanced around. Even PvP wasn’t initially considered when the game was being designed.

If you disagree with what one of the people who actually designed the damn game said, perhaps you should actually try formulating a counter argument and making your case, and if you don’t like people poking holes in your weak arguments, perhaps you should work on getting stronger arguments rather than getting all emotional.

No. I’m sorry if you’ll feel less special if other people have time to progress in raids, but I imagine a lot of people like the idea of their accomplishments staying relevant in perpetuity.

I’m sure plenty of people like LFR and flying too, that doesn’t mean sliding the game further and further towards the casual side of the scale is a good idea. In fact, one could easily make the case that doing exactly that, is the primary reason the retail game has degenerated over time.

It makes it hard to take anything you say very seriously at all. Actually, can I mute you? is there a mute option on these new forums?

I can see that, judging by how you doubled down on an already debunked and logically flawed argument.

As for muting me, there is no mute or ignore function that I’ve yet found on these forums, but take comfort that it’s entirely mutual… or don’t. Either way really, because your opinion of me means exactly nothing in the grand scheme of things.

The entirety of your value to me here is in your ability to formulate a coherent argument for your position, something you are clearly incapable of doing. Also, since you’re also clearly a very staunchly casual player, the entirety of your in game utility to me is when I either murder you for a soul shard (if you’re alliance on whatever pvp server I happen to be on), or when I use you as cannon fodder (if you’re horde and happen to be in one of my battlegrounds)… I might have considered trying to keep you alive if you where on my team, but I mean, I already know you’re going to be a casual in terrible gear, so what’s the point?

Your battleground contribution is basically you getting globaled by the opposing team’s raid or PvP geared players over and over and over… Something, by the way, that is going to happen in ever increasing frequency on a perpetual server as more and more and more people get raid geared while you fret about in pre-raid gear and maybe a couple pieces of T 0.5… So I hope you enjoy getting exactly what you wished for on that account.

[Acropalis-emerald-dream (Acropalis)]

The raids will be cleared fairly quickly, naxx will be on farm and most everyone and their alts will be naxx geared. PVP will be the only lasting activity on classic servers.

I have no issue with that, I’am just hoping we get old AV so we can battle for hours in our naxx gear.

[Thundathys-amanthul (Thundathys)]

I’m not ignoring anything. Your position was read, weighed, noted, and decided to be inherently devoid of merit. Saying some of the items where bad, isn’t helping your argument

You said it casualises gearing,that it invalidates raid gearing and is too easy to acquire. These are all patently false. Which completely invalidates YOUR argument against having it in.

The only argument I’d accept against the inclusion of tier 0.5 is that the drops off the summonable bosses can be quite strong in alot of cases.

[Manhammer-amanthul (Manhammer)]

It took this character 2 years to get the pants to drop from the Baron. I saw two mount drops in that time(Didn’t win either one.) So I didn’t finish the quest chain until the end of BC when the gear was totally worthless (and the upgraded set looks even less Warlock themed than the original drops.)

But, I can understand why the upgrade quest line is added late. It’ll give players to run the old content with alts or with new players. It’s good for the community to have all kinds of people running same content but for different reasons.

Also, the materials cost is huge. It’s good for the economy that we have time to stockpile stuff, and then have a use for it later. People should be grouping up and doing content early on, not all off farming.

[Banjaa-deathwing]

Uh. So you’re one for those that thinks that it’s World of Raids, not World of Warcraft. I mean, let’s be honest here, majority of people in classic didn’t care about raids or not enough to go for the hi-end tier. It won’t be different in Classic.

Are you saying that being one warm body out of 40 able to avoid standing in questionable puddles and clouds is not a worthy and heroic undertaking, compared to easily running through Strat?

What gives me warm tinglies is the memory that back in vanilla raid gear clad individuals got destroyed by the Baron run. Like a brick wall.

I was one of the first people on my server to get through the 45 minute baron run, and there were people better geared than me not making it.

Felt really good getting it done - we wiped hardcore on a face pull the previous attempt and the successful run was just smooth.

[Coniferous-arthas (Coniferous)]

Tier .5 has no business being in Classic at release. Adding it in stage 2 is not Vanilla but a better argument can be made for it.

Non-raiders need some pve content to look forward to later in the game.

[Gnocci-emerald-dream]

And for the record, your “raiders are all that matter” attitude really really bothers me on like a fundamental level. It makes it hard to take anything you say very seriously at all. Actually, can I mute you? is there a mute option on these new forums?

Sadly that technology was lost in the great forum ruination of 2018. Who can say if anyone still has the capability for that most complex of features. I agree that his raid centrist attitude is annoying, and that raid=hard and casual=easy/entitled.

I mean really? That’s what you’re going with? Well great news then buddy, there’s an EVEN MORE CASUAL FRIENDLY version of WoW that’s already been released. It’s called BfA, and in BfA you barely even have to log in to get showered in entirely forgettable Epics.

I love that you continue to act as though D2 acquisition was akin to BFA epic obtaining.

[Gnocci-emerald-dream]

The only argument I’d accept against the inclusion of tier 0.5 is that the drops off the summonable bosses can be quite strong in alot of cases.

Which are made less strong the longer raiders are allowed to gear up before that content that was intended for non raiders.

But, I can understand why the upgrade quest line is added late. It’ll give players to run the old content with alts or with new players.

It was added late because it took that long for blizzard to acknowledge that people who did not have 4-6 hour chunks of time needed something meaningful to work toward. I doubt very much that it was held back for “running old content” or apocaclypse’s belief that it was gear progression that they did not want to “shower casuals with undeserved epics”.

I was one of the first people on my server to get through the 45 minute baron run, and there were people better geared than me not making it.

Felt really good getting it done - we wiped hardcore on a face pull the previous attempt and the successful run was just smooth.

Same. All things being equal, the baron run was vastly more difficult than being in any raid and vastly more satisfying when completed during vanilla.

Tier .5 has no business being in Classic at release.

Reason being: ?
It has been explained in depth that D2 had it’s own inherent gating due to cost, time, items and difficulty, that is AFTER getting the D1 gear to drop and win rolls for it. I have yet to see a valid reason to hold it back, and the longer it is held back the less difficult it will be due to the existence of raid gear.

[Fallanaa-area-52 (Fallanaa)]

And if YOU want to be patted on the back and given rewards for being a casual player, YOU should be looking at BfA.

Vanilla did that fine, thanks.

WoW has NEVER EVER been a hardcore MMO. If you think otherwise, not sure what to tell you, either you’re really remembering incorrectly, or you’re simply trolling. Either way, you’re wrong.

Also, if I wanted to play BfA, I would be. Haven’t played since mid-Legion, not sure I want to. Happy just waiting for my casual Classic experience.

So, you keep believing what you want to about Vanilla, even if you are wrong, and I’ll keep happily waiting for my casual Classic experience that I know is coming.

[Fallanaa-area-52 (Fallanaa)]

You and I don’t agree on a lot, but we agree on this.

I shall give you many likes for your logical arguments against the guy that very clearly has no idea what he’s talking about.

I am really looking forward to D2. I didn’t even get to fully complete my D1 set in Vanilla on my druid, but fully intend to put the work in this time to complete not only D1, but D2 as well.

[Below-shadowmoon (Below)]

D2 was content for non raiders. I seen people bring it was hard to get and costed allot of gold. That in itself is a good reason to hold off on releasing the D2 quest line. The target audience will need time to come up with the gold. It was allot of gold in classic, but the economy was well developed by the release of it.
The baron run was a cool new challenge at the time, I’m sure the run will be sold for gold, just as it was in classic.

[Gnocci-emerald-dream]

D2 was content for non raiders. I seen people bring it was hard to get and costed allot of gold. That in itself is a good reason to hold off on releasing the D2 quest line. The target audience will need time to come up with the gold. It was allot of gold in classic, but the economy was well developed by the release of it.

What.

You want to hold off on it because it will take a long time to accumulate the gold? What kind of logic is that? It’s been repeatedly pointed out that D2 already has inherent gates to it, and does not need an arbitrary time gate on top of it.

The baron run was a cool new challenge at the time, I’m sure the run will be sold for gold, just as it was in classic.

HAHAHAHAHAHAAhahahahaa choke HAHAHAHAHA
Whatever dude. You clearly never did it and know very little about it whatsoever.

[Saintanger-magtheridon (Saintanger)]

The longer it is held back, the more irrelevant it becomes until you get into the situation back in vanilla where the target audience didn’t even bother with it because it was just not available.

[Below-shadowmoon (Below)]

The same target audience for d2 would likely take 3 months to get to 60. Probably a couple months to even get the d1. Delaying d2 would probably work better than it did in classic for the intended audience.

And yes, the baron run was sold for gold in classic. Geared warriors made bank doing that.

[Samweller-gnomeregan]

The .5 questline was probably the most fun and fulfilling undertaking I had in vanilla (with maybe the paladin mount questline as a runner up). That said, me and my brother did it as dungeon-geared players and enjoyed seeing raiders in raid gear failing the 45-min baron and Valthalak.

I would be OK with the .5 line releasing earlier than it was originally - but it really depends on how they work the rest of the itemization progression. If I recall correctly, the .5 line released with a general update to loot tables that upgraded a lot of dungeon loot to blues (as an example, BRD and scholo had bosses and mini-bosses that dropped greens up until then).

[Gnocci-emerald-dream]

The same target audience for d2 would likely take 3 months to get to 60. Probably a couple months to even get the d1. Delaying d2 would probably work better than it did in classic for the intended audience.

Again with the absence of logic. You readily admit that it need not have a time gate and then turn around and try to use that as reasoning to time gate it.

And yes, the baron run was sold for gold in classic. Geared warriors made bank doing that.

I have yet to see any evidence whatsoever of that, anecdotal or otherwise. Even IF that were the case, then all the more reason to not wait for raid people to be geared up prior to releasing it.

[Samweller-gnomeregan]

My experience was that a lot of raiders went straight from leveling to being carried to gear in MC and were thus completely terrible at 5-man content because there was so much more personal accountability. So, many of them relied on massively overgearing the .5 line in order to finish it (not that they even ‘needed’ the gear by that point).

[Banjaa-deathwing]

I have yet to see any evidence whatsoever of that, anecdotal or otherwise. Even IF that were the case, then all the more reason to not wait for raid people to be geared up prior to releasing it.

It was definitely sold on Dunemaul for runs.

Kind of defeats the purpose to me - I can understand buying raid gear, but something you should be able to 5 man with skill? No.

[Manhammer-amanthul (Manhammer)]

D2 was content for non raiders.

I wouldn’t say it was all about non-raiders. PVP gearing will still be best way for nonraiders to gear I think, even though that will be added later too. Ultimately I think Pvp gear is what will ruin the feel of progression in Classic. But I could be wrong, it still is a time sink at least. Also there might be some preNAxx gear bis items in the .5 set. I’m not sure though. Maybe only 1 or 2 pieces for all of the different specs in the game.

[Thundathys-amanthul (Thundathys)]

Also there might be some preNAxx gear bis items in the .5 set

Alot of it was complete garbage and it wouldnt suprise me to find out none of it was useful beyond BWL.