Blizzard, I hope you are making this happen. If classic launches with the gear itemization we had at the end of vanilla, you will be shooting yourselves in the foot and the project will likely not be a success. This is an essential component that must be in classic or players will far out gear the early raid content.
I would just hope that if they do decide to do progressive itemization they actually do it entirely.
On the private servers that have done it recently, they took away the new loot added to MC in 1.4 and reverted the t1 stats, but they left the loot tables basically as they were in 1.4, just minus the loot that was added.
In actual vanilla in patch 1.3 and earlier the loot tables were quite different, t1 and t2 dropped from both MC and BWL, and the pieces were distributed differently among the bosses.
The private server experience with progressive itemization leads to a very boring few months of doing MC/Ony with the gear you are getting basically being crap until they update it, not really fun.
On the private servers that have done it recently, they took away the new loot added to MC in 1.4 and reverted the t1 stats, but they left the loot tables basically as they were in 1.4, just minus the loot that was added.
In actual vanilla in patch 1.3 and earlier the loot tables were quite different, t1 and t2 dropped from both MC and BWL, and the pieces were distributed differently among the bosses.
The private server experience with progressive itemization leads to a very boring few months of doing MC/Ony with the gear you are getting basically being crap until they update it, not really fun.
1.12 across the board would be the most fun.
Thanks.
Thanks.
That's a hell of a lot of work blizzard isn't going to do. The best we can hope for is Only MC and Ony are open at launch, and no Dire Maul for catch up gear.
I had some chats about this in other threads, I still fail to see the point of item progression, is it you guys just want itemization to be progressive so it is used as a sort of catch up mechanic or what ?
Much prefer natural progression of items being fixed and not magically changing overnight when logging in,
Actual item progression feels better achieved by running a harder content, they could balance items at any point from any patch and leave them that way to allow a more natural progression.
Much prefer natural progression of items being fixed and not magically changing overnight when logging in,
Actual item progression feels better achieved by running a harder content, they could balance items at any point from any patch and leave them that way to allow a more natural progression.
i am not interested in convincing any posters of anything necessarily, but i just want to say i hope progressive itemization is not implemented. the loot tables were initially extremely weird, i do not find acquiring resist gear either interesting or an enjoyable aspect of gameplay, and i don't personally understand how making MC and BWL more difficult is integral to enjoy many of classic's more positive attributes. MC and BWL are interminably boring. if you feel differently, that is fine, but "shooting yourselves in the foot" is not a view everyone will share.
The itemization that matters is 100% the catch up 5 man blues and craftable gear added after AQ that allowed new players to "catch up" with BWL raiding guilds.
The impact of itemization on especially MC but also BWL can't be understated. Yes, they can tune the content for players being more powerful but do you then want them to revamp the MC look when your complaining that a blue belt from a L56 boss in BRD is better than anything available in MC or BWL?
Catch up gear in Vanilla was loot added to 5 man dungeons, not a vendor. As with all catch up loot it should be implemented at the appropriate time not at the beginning.
Side note - you actually cant really tune the content for the gear improvements. In patch 1.2, 1.3 when you were progressing in molten core there was practically no +damage or +healing gear available and the MC gear gave very small amounts. Healers were so much less powerful than they became after DM/catch up gear was introduced. To counteract the power healers got the encounters became more technically challenging. There is no way to make MC challenging if the players have the gear and talents to heal through the few abilities the bosses do have.
The impact of itemization on especially MC but also BWL can't be understated. Yes, they can tune the content for players being more powerful but do you then want them to revamp the MC look when your complaining that a blue belt from a L56 boss in BRD is better than anything available in MC or BWL?
Catch up gear in Vanilla was loot added to 5 man dungeons, not a vendor. As with all catch up loot it should be implemented at the appropriate time not at the beginning.
Side note - you actually cant really tune the content for the gear improvements. In patch 1.2, 1.3 when you were progressing in molten core there was practically no +damage or +healing gear available and the MC gear gave very small amounts. Healers were so much less powerful than they became after DM/catch up gear was introduced. To counteract the power healers got the encounters became more technically challenging. There is no way to make MC challenging if the players have the gear and talents to heal through the few abilities the bosses do have.
the main argument for item progression is that it keeps MC harder during the initial launch.
if your goal is MC to be more difficult, then it would be much simpler for blizzard to just buff everything in MC, instead of tweaking hundreds of items multiple times.
if your goal is MC to be more difficult, then it would be much simpler for blizzard to just buff everything in MC, instead of tweaking hundreds of items multiple times.
10/26/2018 07:01 AMPosted by KalzarathThe itemization that matters is 100% the catch up 5 man blues and craftable gear added after AQ that allowed new players to "catch up" with BWL raiding guilds.
The impact of itemization on especially MC but also BWL can't be understated. Yes, they can tune the content for players being more powerful but do you then want them to revamp the MC look when your complaining that a blue belt from a L56 boss in BRD is better than anything available in MC or BWL?
Catch up gear in Vanilla was loot added to 5 man dungeons, not a vendor. As with all catch up loot it should be implemented at the appropriate time not at the beginning.
Side note - you actually cant really tune the content for the gear improvements. In patch 1.2, 1.3 when you were progressing in molten core there was practically no +damage or +healing gear available and the MC gear gave very small amounts. Healers were so much less powerful than they became after DM/catch up gear was introduced. To counteract the power healers got the encounters became more technically challenging. There is no way to make MC challenging if the players have the gear and talents to heal through the few abilities the bosses do have.
ZG at least for mages, was the worst of the bunch. Beautiful instance, by wtf Blizzard what were you thinking??!!!
Personally, I think that MC/BWL/etc needs to be re-tuned with 20 mans in mind to a X% extent. And 5 man catch up gear 100%.
I forget, was there a weekly lockout for ZG? If there was, reduce the lockout period so that more serious guilds could "farm" them as well for the gear necessary to head into MC.
This will also force linear progression - which is Vanilla like, but at the same time, non Vanilla like. Given linear progression, re-tuning based on itemization is very possible. But, MC at it's original difficulty was meant to be challenging - not hard, but challenging resource wise.
This will also be a huge stop sign to the more casual guilds. I have no answers.
i cannot be bothered to get on the googler, but i believe ZG had a three or four day lockout.
10/26/2018 07:03 AMPosted by Hatchmarkthe main argument for item progression is that it keeps MC harder during the initial launch.
if your goal is MC to be more difficult, then it would be much simpler for blizzard to just buff everything in MC, instead of tweaking hundreds of items multiple times.
This. This also forces linear progression. 5 mans -> 20 mans -> 40 mans.
10/26/2018 07:03 AMPosted by Hatchmarkif your goal is MC to be more difficult, then it would be much simpler for blizzard to just buff everything in MC, instead of tweaking hundreds of items multiple times.
+1 exactly! and on the flip side its weird to login one day and find several of your items just change that may or may not be BiS anymore
I find progressive anything to be highly unlikely, we will be lucky if raids are released in a staggered fashion (wich mens they will get cleared in a few hours sadly).
10/26/2018 06:48 AMPosted by LagspikeThat's a hell of a lot of work blizzard isn't going to do.
Agreed.
10/26/2018 07:03 AMPosted by Hatchmarkif your goal is MC to be more difficult, then it would be much simpler for blizzard to just buff everything in MC, instead of tweaking hundreds of items multiple times.
And even simpler, if someone wants MC to be difficult, is to not wear gear that trivializes it. That seems like the ultimate in simplicity: all you have to do to not have gear that makes it easy is not equip it in the first place.
10/26/2018 09:20 AMPosted by Anaramth10/26/2018 06:48 AMPosted by LagspikeThat's a hell of a lot of work blizzard isn't going to do.
Agreed.10/26/2018 07:03 AMPosted by Hatchmarkif your goal is MC to be more difficult, then it would be much simpler for blizzard to just buff everything in MC, instead of tweaking hundreds of items multiple times.
And even simpler, if someone wants MC to be difficult, is to not wear gear that trivializes it. That seems like the ultimate in simplicity: all you have to do to not have gear that makes it easy is not equip it in the first place.
Players will use and abuse every single adventage possible to make the content easier and faster, its the nature of the gaming culture and minmaxing today.
I mean... I don't think just because you find particular content in vanilla boring means you should change the experience of vanilla.10/26/2018 06:57 AMPosted by Vlisi am not interested in convincing any posters of anything necessarily, but i just want to say i hope progressive itemization is not implemented. the loot tables were initially extremely weird, i do not find acquiring resist gear either interesting or an enjoyable aspect of gameplay, and i don't personally understand how making MC and BWL more difficult is integral to enjoy many of classic's more positive attributes. MC and BWL are interminably boring. if you feel differently, that is fine, but "shooting yourselves in the foot" is not a view everyone will share.
I mean... there are a lot of people with your mindset, and if any of them got their way Classic wouldn't be Vanilla.... I don't like this= don't have it...
10/26/2018 09:39 AMPosted by TundrenI mean... I don't think just because you find particular content in vanilla boring means you should change the experience of vanilla.10/26/2018 06:57 AMPosted by Vlisi am not interested in convincing any posters of anything necessarily, but i just want to say i hope progressive itemization is not implemented. the loot tables were initially extremely weird, i do not find acquiring resist gear either interesting or an enjoyable aspect of gameplay, and i don't personally understand how making MC and BWL more difficult is integral to enjoy many of classic's more positive attributes. MC and BWL are interminably boring. if you feel differently, that is fine, but "shooting yourselves in the foot" is not a view everyone will share.
I mean... there are a lot of people with your mindset, and if any of them got their way Classic wouldn't be Vanilla.... I don't like this= don't have it...
i am interested in classic. i am just not interested in it being rolled out in a way to re-create the linear progression of classic as it happened years ago. the parts of classic that appeal to me have little to do with its timeline. obviously i want the game to be realized in the sense i prefer it. i just want 1.12 released, with perhaps a few caveats (dishonorable kills removed for example). if you feel differently, that's fine; this isn't an i'm right and you're wrong situation.
It would be very difficult for them to start with the bedrock of 1.12 and REMOVE gear and/or dungeons just to then add it back in piecemeal 6-8 months+ later.
From what I gather, private servers are known to do this, but this isn't a private server trying to extend the Vanilla experience (and probably sell stuff to the people along the way). This is Blizz trying to make the "definitive" Vanilla experience and I doubt they would have everything else be 1.12 but have gear be 1.3/1.4 and AV be 1.5 or whatever people are advocating for and have DM and other stuff not open right from the start.
From what I gather, private servers are known to do this, but this isn't a private server trying to extend the Vanilla experience (and probably sell stuff to the people along the way). This is Blizz trying to make the "definitive" Vanilla experience and I doubt they would have everything else be 1.12 but have gear be 1.3/1.4 and AV be 1.5 or whatever people are advocating for and have DM and other stuff not open right from the start.
I'm not a fan of progressive itemization at all BUT if they do implement it...
FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY LEAVE PALADIN TIER 1 LAWBRINGER STATS IN THEIR ORIGINAL FORM AND NOT THE +HEALING GARBAGE THEY ENDED UP AS:
What most people remember as Tier 1 Lawbringer:
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?itemset=208
Actual Tier 1 Lawbringer at launch:
http://web.archive.org/web/20050207013827/http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/itemset.html?setid=208
What most people remember as Tier 2 Judgement:
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?itemset=217
Actual Tier 2 Judgement at launch:
http://web.archive.org/web/20050207023842/http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/itemset.html?setid=217
In the end, Tier 1 Lawbringer went through 2 changes and Tier 2 Judgement actually went through 3 changes through the course of Vanilla:
Patch 1.0 Game Launch
- Tier 1 - Full Retribution (with some items having +healing)
- Tier 2 - Full Retribution (with some items having +healing)
Patch 1.6 Blackwing Lair
- Tier 1 - revamped to the hybrid Piece of $hit set that we all know
- Tier 2 - All STR/AGI removed and each item given loads of +Healing
Patch 1.9 AQ and Paladin Revamp
- Tier 1 - remains the Po$ set we all still know and loathe
- Tier 2 - STR added back and +Spell Damage/Healing instead of +Healing on all items
FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY LEAVE PALADIN TIER 1 LAWBRINGER STATS IN THEIR ORIGINAL FORM AND NOT THE +HEALING GARBAGE THEY ENDED UP AS:
What most people remember as Tier 1 Lawbringer:
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?itemset=208
Actual Tier 1 Lawbringer at launch:
http://web.archive.org/web/20050207013827/http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/itemset.html?setid=208
What most people remember as Tier 2 Judgement:
http://db.vanillagaming.org/?itemset=217
Actual Tier 2 Judgement at launch:
http://web.archive.org/web/20050207023842/http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/itemset.html?setid=217
In the end, Tier 1 Lawbringer went through 2 changes and Tier 2 Judgement actually went through 3 changes through the course of Vanilla:
Patch 1.0 Game Launch
- Tier 1 - Full Retribution (with some items having +healing)
- Tier 2 - Full Retribution (with some items having +healing)
Patch 1.6 Blackwing Lair
- Tier 1 - revamped to the hybrid Piece of $hit set that we all know
- Tier 2 - All STR/AGI removed and each item given loads of +Healing
Patch 1.9 AQ and Paladin Revamp
- Tier 1 - remains the Po$ set we all still know and loathe
- Tier 2 - STR added back and +Spell Damage/Healing instead of +Healing on all items
10/26/2018 07:03 AMPosted by Hatchmarkit would be much simpler for blizzard to just buff everything in MC, instead of tweaking hundreds of items multiple times.
10/26/2018 06:48 AMPosted by LagspikeThat's a hell of a lot of work blizzard isn't going to do. The best we can hope for is Only MC and Ony are open at launch, and no Dire Maul for catch up gear.
It would literally take a single intern one day to compile a list of all items that change, what they change to, and when they change.
The reason why is that vanilla enthusiasts (aka private servers) have already done the work; they have gone through archived patch notes, asserted certain item changes, received scrutiny from the community, made adjustments, and so forth. It's like archaeological research that became public knowledge. The only thing that differs are creative decisions as to what should change, how it should change, or what shouldn't.
It is a flat out lie to assert this to be a monumental task. Not picking on you; a few people believe this.
People who don't know what they're talking about should seriously calm down and make the intensity of their suggestions proportional to the experience they have on the matter. Seriously, aren't you guys curious as to what vanilla would be like if people who played it over and over again had the most influence on this process? Why pretend to be a know-it-all?