Primordial Wave change - Ele feedback

Please make some changes to Prim Wave for Ele. Current PTR changes are not good, they do not solve any complexity with Primordial Wave as stated in the development goals. Flame shock spreading is the entire complexity around priming ‘lava burst’, removing Lava Burst functionality from prim wave did not change anything since we still have to spread Flame Shocks the exact same way before.

And since Prim Wave gives a guaranteed proc of Lava Surge, its highly likely we will be pressing Lava Burst right after Prim Wave anyway even on 11.1 PTR, so even the rotation for prim wave remains the exact same.

Please just revert Prim Wave to how it was before with Lava Burst and then bake Liquid Magma Totem into Primordial Wave. This will simplify Prim Wave gameplay by removing 1 button press for priming/spreading Flame Shocks, allowing Prim Wave to handle that by itself. LMT can be replaced by a capstone for Prim Wave that lets it cleave, spread 5 flame shocks and maybe even overload for fun.

Still in need of some prim wave updates for ele!

Please do not let Prim Wave go live in this state for Ele. Gameplay got worse, complexity remained the same if not worse due to losing a Flame Shock application via Prim Wave.

Ideas/suggestions are in this thread, and other threads, but whatever happens it really cannot go live like this. Its now a very bland ability that does not have the rewarding factor of throwing out a ton of overloading Lava Bursts.

We are not enhance shamans, we do not have multiple ways to get out 5 flame shocks and keep them out, Prim Wave complexity comes from spreading and maintaining Flame Shocks, not pressing Lava Burst. Lava Burst was the fun part. If you want to tackle complexity of Prim Wave, look at Flame Shock spreading.

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Just wanted to post on this thread to state I agree that the Primordial Wave change for Elemental needs to be reverted and cannot go live. Designing a SPEC TREE ability to work the same for two different specs with completely different tools and playstyles is insane.

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Exactly this.

It works for enhancement, it does not work for Elemental. Enhance has more buttons to press more often, so pressing Lightning Bolt after pressing Primordial Wave maybe was a bit too much for Enh, and this change works out very well to remedy that. For Elemental though, we press less buttons so setting up for Prim Wave is not nearly as ‘complex’ and pressing Lava Burst after hitting Prim Wave is actually the best and most fun part, because Prim Wave gives us a guaranteed Lava Surge proc making Lava Burst instant.

Please revert this change for Ele, it works perfectly fine the way it is on live. We do -not- need to have Prim Wave work the same way for both specs, they are different specs entirely. It is okay for a new player to play enh, then swap ele and realize prim wave works a little differently.

If you do want to reduce ‘complexity’ behind Prim Wave for Elemental, you did not target the right part of Prim Wave. You removed pressing Lava Burst which added nothing to the complexity of Prim Wave, and you made the actual ‘complex’ part even more complex, which is mass-applying Flame Shocks. Prim Wave lost its flame shock application meaning we now have 1 less way to apply Flame Shock, making the ramp for Prim Wave more difficult to do.

So please do not let this change go live, it does nothing but make Prim Wave gameplay more annoying/challenging for Ele but not in a good way and the gameplay is just less exciting because the payoff was doing massive cleave damage with Lava burst+generating a ton of Maelstrom and getting to see lava bursts cleaving and overloading everywhere. It was a big dopamine hit lol.

If you really want to address ‘complexity’, remove Liquid Magma Totem and replace it with a passive talent that makes Primordial Wave cleave 5 targets and apply Flame Shocks to them (but leave Prim Wave the way it is on live with Lava burst cleave). This would actually reduce complexity by giving us an instant way to apply 5 flame shocks by just pressing Prim Wave, it removes the positional requirement of Liquid magma totem and that button press as well.

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It anything let Pwave make our next lava burst, Ele blast, lightning bolt, or tempest instant. Replace lava surge with this. I mean with this change who says it has to synergies with just lava burst?

Or just keep it the way it is in live and do not let this change go through!

I agree that the prim wave change feels terrible for ele. IMO it was not a complicated spell at all as the devs stated and it feels really good to manage your LMT’s and flame shocks correctly to get that massive burst of haste/cleave damage/maelstrom all at once for setting it up properly.

Losing the lava burst cleave aspect is a big maelstrom loss which feels awful.

It feels much more like a nerf than a QOL change in any way.

This change on top of losing Ancestral Guidance is def a mega feelsbad for ele.

They should at least get rid of the flame shock CD if theyre going to go through with this change, or let LMT flame shock up to 6 targets on cast.

We need at least SOME compensation for losing a big part of what made the spell feel good to press IMO.

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I don’t have any detailed analysis or anything, but this change feels bad. Real bad. I don’t care about the damage, maelstrom generation, whatever. It feels bad to play.

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Hoping to see something in the notes for this. Gameplay of primordial wave feels far worse. We also just lost a ton of value behind Erupting Lava now too (which is largely played in PvP but sometimes pve as well).

Wowhead guide writer for elemental sham also talks about this change briefly and is just as negative about it as the rest of us here.

The ele sham rework was so good and successful, imo one of the best reworks out there. This prim wave change really hurts that, you can increase its damage however much you want but it’s the lava bursts that are overloading and cleaving and critting that made it feel good.

As someone who was looking to swap to Ele in S2, this change feels really bad. I can’t imagine any time where you would want to use the new pwave. Even if it got buffed it would still feel horrible to play with.

I don’t think I’m experienced enough with Ele to say what the right move is. I’ve seen number of good (or at least better) sounding suggestions here. At the very least though this new change should not go live.

Yeah I mean realistically all they actually need to do for now is just revert it to how it is on live. Works perfectly fine on live, there aren’t many complaining about prim wave at all because the payoff of having Lava Bursts flying everywhere overloading and cleaving is just awesome. Even if we lost no damage or maelstrom generation from the PTR change (we do currently, a lot) it would still suck because we lost a lot of flavor, Lava Burst cleave was very cool.

If they wanted to make Prim Wave less ‘complex’, they need to target flame shock applications as that is the complex part for Ele, not the additional button press of Lava Burst.

Making this ability work the same for Ele/Enh makes no sense, completely different specs. Enh has more globals so removing the extra global from pressing Lightning Bolt after Pwave made sense, but for Ele it does not make any sense as it has less globals and can easily press that Lava Burst after hitting Pwave, especially since it gives a Lava Surge proc. For enhance, they have no problems with spreading and applying flame shock prior to Prim wave, but for Ele that is where the ‘difficult’ part is. Hopefully they realize this and do not let it go live this way.

I am seeing complaints all over the place about this prim wave change too. From top end PvPers to top end M+ers to casual pvpers/M+ers etc. It is widely considered an awful change.

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I tried to give the new pwave the benefit of the doubt. Played with it on PTR and i just hate it… the change feels so far beyond pointless and i hate losing a quick lava surge generator AND another way to apply flame shock…

This change just sucks

This really needs to be addressed. Ignoring damage values, the gameplay of it is god awful. As others mentioned its a huge loss of maelstrom generation which helps get the rotation going in AoE since hitting 3 targets is often more than enough to use a spender so we’re not just spamming Chain Lighting forever at the start of packs. And enough has been said how awful it feels losing a means to apply a Flame Shock outside of DRE procs, Ascendance, manual application, and LMT.

I also have major gripes with this change regarding the single target rotation and flame shock management. As now on live, its absolute miniscule gain to maintain 100% uptime on Flame Shock in single target scenarios and you can simply let it fall off your target and wait until Pwave to apply it instead of manually hitting Flame Shock. In fact, even you consume an Icefury proc, you’d just cast Lava Burst even if the target does not have Flame Shock to consume the fire portion of Fusion of Elements. This is because all the hooks into Lava Burst have been severely reduced (Maelstrom granted from Searing Flames and Lava Surge procs) that it falling off and avoiding casting Lava Burst for 12 seconds (outside of triggering Fusion of Elements) is better than manually casting Flame Shock to get 12 seconds of Flame Shock before it gets reapplied by Pwave because there are other GCDs more beneficial, including an Icefury empowered Frost Shock.

With this change, we now need to waste a GCD on Flame Shock before Pwave. Even you were to only use Flame Shock just for Pwave and then let it fall off until your next Pwave, this with us using a significantly low impact button that does little damage for the press and generates a tiny amount of maelstrom. If you wish to maintain 100% uptime on Flame Shock on live, you simply need to hit Flame Shock at the very least when theres is 12 seconds left on your dot to minimize the impact of using that GCD for Flame Shock, or in other words 1 additional GCD per Pwave cycle. With the PTR version, you’re now adding 2 additional GCDs to every Pwave cycle.

Additionally this makes LMT needed to be taken on fights where previously we would be able to devote a talent point to somewhere else. Fights such as Mythic Queen and Mythic Court are examples where you would want to get out multiple Flameshocks but you don’t need LMT. Mythic Queen P2 for example, the first platform has 2 targets that must die; if you don’t plan on using Ascendance at that particular spot, you can still get two flame shocks out easily by Flame Shocking one target then using Pwave on the other and go into your rotation with gaining a bump in maelstrom and 14% haste from hitting two targets. With this change as it works on PTR, you would need to Flame Shock one target then wait for Flame Shock’s CD (5ish seconds depending on haste) to apply it to the other target before consuming Pwave (meaning delaying Ancestors for Farseer) or take LMT and then do 2 whole GCDs (Flame Shock and then LMT) if LMT is not able to hit both.

For a fight like Silken Court, you simple just need to apply Flame Shock to one boss, then Pwave the other to setup for burst. With the PTR version, you would need to pre apply your Flame Shocks so they are active when you hit Pwave which adds more things to track on a pretty complicated fight or use LMT which would only be applicable when they are stacked, which there are a large number of times when they are not (phase 1 during jumps, p2 and 3 due to Skeinspinner jumping around).

This also has some impact on the rotation related to how we would want to sequence our CDs effectively. Going into our second Ascendance playing Farseer in a fight, ideally you’d want to cast Storm Ele > Stormkeeper > Pwave (Ancestral Swiftness as well) > Ascendance > Lava Burst. However given that PTR version does its affect when you press Pwave, you would need to do something like Storm Ele > Stormkeeper > Ascendance > Pwave (Ancestral Swiftness) > Lava Burst which eats up a GCD in our Ascendance window since Pwave does not overload and gains no benefit from Ascendance overload buffs.

This change is so confusing because as people said, this only seeks to make Pwave more complicated and cumbersome to use effectively. It additionally impacts other gameplay aspects outside of Pwave. They really need to revert Pwave to its current functionality or make it a choice node between how it works on live or the PTR version if a player would rather opt for that version. This really puts nasty mark on 11.1 Elemental which outside of this is really enjoyable change (not that it wouldn’t from some changes here or there). Please re-consider this change and revert it before next season.

4 Likes

Bump. Please see this blizzard. We are begging you. IT IS NOT A GOOD CHANGE

Gone through a month of PTR and this is still not addressed. Why are you changing abilities to work the same way across 2 completely different specs just because the ability has the same name? I’m sorry but this is not necessary, people can read the abilities and will notice they do slightly different things per spec. This ability is in the SPEC tree, not the class tree.

Lava Burst cleave is currently one of the most exciting things about Ele shaman on live. It looks amazing and feels amazing. Pressing Lava Burst was -not- the complex portion of Prim wave for Ele, removing that just makes Prim Wave feel bland.

Not to mention the damage and Maelstrom loss, but even if PTR prim wave did the same damage and generated the same maelstrom as live Prim wave, it would still feel worse because it is now a completely bland button. Please revert Prim wave to its live version. If you want to reduce “complexity” of prim wave, target flame shock spreading/application for Ele.

PvErs and PvPers alike have this same opinion. Check the Wowhead guide, listen to PvP Ele shamans speak about it, check youtube videos of M+ ele shamans. The feedback is there.

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Blizzard, read this mans post! He lays it out really well

Biggest true ever.

  • Primordial Wave has been redesigned – Now deals a high amount of damage to all targets affected by your Flame Shock.
    • Developers’ notes: Primordial Wave is a complicated spell to manage and get optimal use out of. We’re adjusting it to be more of a big damage impact upon activating the ability rather than priming your next Lava Burst to hit many targets.

They claimed to change prim wave because it was too “complicated” (It wasn’t at all) in fact it added much needed QOL for flame shock spread and really added quick ramp of maelstrom gen and Master of the elements procs).

As of right now on PTR this spell does NOT deal big damage impact like you claimed you wanted it to do. It feels like it hits like a wet noodle. It is basically only used for the haste talent below it, some builds just don’t take it at all anymore.

The new prim wave is literally a downgrade in EVERY possible way and just makes the gameplay loop more clunky.

IF they want to keep prim wave the way it is…Get rid of flame shock cooldown completely because we either need LMT up or to wait 6 seconds for another just to multi dot.

Revert Prim wave change completely IMO. There was nothing wrong with it whatsoever. It felt enjoyable to press. It feels like change for the sake of change which is not a good thing.

  • Ancestral Guidance has been removed.
    • Developers’ notes: We have a couple goals we are trying to address with this change. One is to reduce the overlap between Ascendance and Ancestral Guidance for Restoration. They both serve a similar purpose and are often combined together. Second, we’d like to bolster Enhancement and Elementals off-healing utility from intentional global cooldown usage while pulling back on more passive ways to restore group health.

This change on top of losing Ancestral Guidance with basically 0 offhealing compensation (80% healing stream totem and a small farseer healing surge buff nowhere near enough) just makes me feel like the devs purposely wanted to downgrade dps shaman, because that’s all we got out of 11.1 so far sadly.

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Yeah it is really odd to see. I mean enhance got a great rework, it is extremely fun, but the Prim Wave change to ele and the AG removal for both Enh and Ele is so obviously bad I have no idea what they are doing.

The compensation we got for losing AG feels very lazy to me. Buffing Healing Stream and calling it a day is ridiculous, it isn’t well thought out at all. How does that make up for the loss of AG as a personal defensive in both PvP and PvE? In PvP it does 6-7 mil healing to me per arena match, 4-5 mil per round of shuffle, and 8-10 mil in a blitz match, and again thats only to myself. Healing Stream heals 1 person every 1.8 seconds for 110k on ptr, you can’t use this as a personal and it is killable in PvP, it isn’t even close. I understand wanting the off healing capability of AG nerfed, but it was a personal defensive too in a lot of ways.

On top of that both Enh and Ele have no real way to off heal well without AG. Enh has to sacrifice a ton of damage, and ele has to spend time casting to do it. So we lost our main way to off heal as “hybrid” specs, and yet we are still relatively weak defensively (at least in pvp, but I see it as a complaint in pve too) and our mobility isn’t the best either. How are we going to lose off healing like this with no compensation anywhere else? Buffing healing stream was not the -only- thing that was needed, needed personal defensive compensation too and maybe a better way to actually off heal with our healing spells for ele and enh.

Prim wave change is completely clueless and sad to see for Ele of course, don’t even think they looked at it again after changing it lol.

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the changes are great for enh but i can see why ely doesn’t want it. I don’t get why certain classes share abilities from different specs.

Yeah its great for enh because enh and ele had different reasons for prim wave being “complex” if we can even call it that.

For enh, losing that extra required button press after prim wave feels great because enh has much higher apm than ele does, so having Prim wave do everything as its own button feels great.

For Ele, the extra required button press was not even remotely a concern because again we can fit it in easily, it was the most exciting part of prim wave for ele and prim waves “complexity” for ele revolves around flame shock spreading/application. So the opposite of enhancement, enh has a much easier time with FS spreading/application.

Enh also got more work to Prim wave, they didn’t just get this change and then nothing. They got Maelstrom weapon generation baked in baseline, a big damage increase to prim wave and a new capstone talent related to Prim Wave that owns hard. Ele got nothing lmao.

The fact this has remained this way for this long on PTR and so far doesn’t look to be changing is pretty disheartening. Especially after so much effort went into reworking Ele, this has been my favorite iteration of it since MoP and a large part of that is due to how fun/cool prim wave is, combined with overloads being relevant and the ascendance change. Just really sad to see.

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