(Edit 5/final edit) Why is the Primordial Wave change on 11.1 PTR not good? Why does it not align with the Developer notes?
-On PTR, Prim Wave is changed to no longer work with Lava burst and instead Prim Wave itself cleaves onto all targets effected by your Flame Shock. This does not change anything about the complexity of ‘priming’ as stated in the developer notes because the only difficult thing about current Prim Wave is having to get Flame Shocks out to prime Lava Burst cleave, and that is not going away on PTR it is just changing from Lava Burst to Prim Wave itself.
-The same level of difficulty remains on PTR but we will now also get way less Maelstrom Gen from Prim Wave as it only gens 3 compared to Lava bursts 8 and does not work with Mastery. This leads to Prim Wave being less exciting, less thematic as it doesn’t overload while remaining just as challenging.
Final feedback on how to achieve the stated developer goals in the developer notes:
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Primordial Wave cleaves on up to 5 targets and applies Flame Shock to all 5 targets
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Make Primordial Wave work with Elemental Overload (ele sham mastery), this would be extremely fun and make the button feel better to press on its own due to how amazing ele shaman mastery feels and looks. It would be very thematic and also slightly increase maelstrom generation contributing to damage a little faster.
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Keep Lava burst cleave from Prim Wave. Damage can be tuned as needed since this would essentially be Cleave into Cleave spells.
How does this achieve the stated developer goals regarding limiting complexity with priming Lava Burst cleave? How does this make Prim Wave a fun/good button to hit on its own?
-This allows you to cut down on the amount of single Flame shocks you need to apply before hitting Prim Wave, making the ‘ramp’ much easier to deal with. On live right now, if you pull a pack of 5 mobs, you need to use 2 single flame shocks (9 seconds) and Liquid Magma totem to hit all 5. With this change, you could walk into the pack and press Prim Wave right away, getting 5 flame shocks out allowing you to immediately cleave with Lava Burst.
-If you pull a pack of 7, you’d only need Prim Wave+2 single flame shocks or 1 Liquid magma totem as opposed to needing 1 liquid magma totem, 3 single Flame shocks and Prim Wave with the current change. This also makes Liquid Magma totem more of a flex talent than a required one with Prim Wave.
-This makes Prim Wave a good button to press on its own since it will now overload, contribute more to maelstrom generation and will cleave damage+flame shocks. The damage can be tuned to feel good from the initial Prim Wave hits, but overloading and cleaving will already feel better than live.
11 Likes
With this iteration of primordial wave ele shaman is going to need another way to apply flame shock to replace the loss of old primordial wave. I also fundamentally dislike how this ability is apparently meant to replace a combo of primordial wave->lava burst with a new one of basic flameshock->primordial wave. Naturally it will feel better with ascendance but prim wave has a much shorter cd with ascendance you are going to end up having to natty flame shock to enable it and at that point its just worse than what its replacing. To the point where if this change goes through I kinda hope primordial wave isn’t a meta talent so I can play stormbringer and ignore the new one despite really liking the old one.
That is without going into the myriad of other issues of no mastery scaling, no ascendance scaling, no maelstrom generation.
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Wait why do you think we need another way to apply FS in practice? I assume the only thing that they are changing about prim wave is that it no longer cleaves lava burst and instead just cleaves itself, but still applies flame shock and gives you a lava surge proc. If it doesnt do that, its a very bad change, but I assume it still does? No reason it shouldnt. The lava surge proc feels so good, there is no reason to get rid of that.
They could also just make it so magma totem applies more than 3 flame shocks. Applying natty flame shocks isnt bad though if you take Erupting Lava and Flames of the Cauldron like we do in pvp. Makes it so flame shocks last longer, do more damage and also has a reduced cooldown (4.5s cd).
Thats another thing though, we lose Erupting lava damage from this change in pvp as well but it wont take away time from all of your flame shocks now as well, but that might be a bit of a decent dmg loss.
The tooltip doesn’t mention applying Flame shock anymore so it’s assumed it no longer does that. Liquid magma totem only applying to 3 means we are forced into tab target flame shock application for 3 targets or up to 6 if LMT is on CD or you don’t want to take it. Tab target application gameplay is awful and doing it every single pack is just excruciating even more so when you need to kick an important ability. Enhancement has a bunch of ways of spreading Flame shock so it’s super easy for them, but for us all we have is LMT. We need more ways to spread FS without having to individually target mobs in a pack. LMT could apply to 6 or at least 5 targets instead of 3 would be great and lowering it’s cooldown so we aren’t left with times where we are without it.
I like the idea of Primordial wave cutting out the clunky step if it just essentially being a damage buff, but tying it to flame shock when we don’t have a bunch of ways of applying it like Enhancement is bad. It basically forces you into LMT, which just further reduces any choice in the spec tree.
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It no longer applies flame shock, functions like fire nova for enh where you can’t even cast it without flame shocks up, and no longer gives the proc. Or at least that was my read.
That is an insane nerf to ele shaman then. Not just a gameplay nerf but numbers too.
Okay then new feedback:
-Increase Maelstrom generation for Primordial Wave up from 3 to 8 to match Lava Burst Maelstrom Gen (so it can match Lava burst cleave generation from current Prim wave)
-Make Primordial Wave work with Mastery so it can overload (this makes it as fun/cool as cleaving lava bursts and having them overload)
-Make Primordial Wave still apply Flame Shock and give a proc of Lava Surge (this was extremely good gameplay, losing this is very bad for ele numbers wise and gameplay wise, guaranteeing a lava surge every 30 sec is so nice)
If these changes aren’t implemented, this Primordial Wave change will be a sizeable nerf to Elemental shaman, especially regarding Maelstrom generation. It is also a nerf to gameplay, losing the guaranteed lava surge proc and not having a bunch of lava bursts cleaving and overloading is really sad, that is such a fun part of elemental right now.
I want to see and feel a bunch of Primordial Waves cleaving and overloading, and I still want to get an instant lava burst from it right after from lava surge. Making gameplay worse for the sake of simplification is not a good way to go, but it’s very possible to resolve this with the above changes.
Primordial Wave was the wrong SL talent to keep going into DF. Chain Harvest or Vesper Totem would have been better. Even when it’s powerful, Primordial Wave doesn’t feel fun or cool.
2 Likes
I disagree with that I love Prim Wave right now. Its such a fun spell, you press it, get an instant lava burst that cleaves everywhere you have flame shock, and those lava bursts also overload for even more. Its a very thematic spell.
I dont think the change they are making here is bad as long as Prim Wave has the exact same benefits as right now with Maelstorm gen and mastery so it can also overload. All this change does is make prim wave its own button now, but they also need to ensure maelstrom gen is the same, and keep the thematic overloading that the current prim wave has with lava burst.
Also prim wave looks very cool, having it overload everywhere would be so sweet. If they aren’t going to do any of this though then I dont want this change at all, leave it the way it is.
I honestly think they should just not change prim wave. They did a lot of changes recently but prim wave with the lava burst proc is about as good as its going to get. I’d rather they not reinvent this wheel and move on to something that should be fixed instead. I’m already dreading the prospect of having to play farseer while not being able to summon grandpa because flame shock fell off.
The proposed change requires a ton of work to make work that could go elsewhere and on face value just makes ele shaman worse for no reason when you have a functional spell already there not particularly needing a change to begin with.
Alse vesper totem staying would be one of the worst things they could have done, unless it was for resto only, which incidentally I feel like this flavor of primordial wave would have been a whole lot better aimed at resto where the set up is actually annoying.
2 Likes
I am definitely of the mindset that changing Prim wave for ele is really not a good way to go. I’d much rather keep what we currently have, its so thematic and fun that I really dont think it can even be improved. Like, I’m not sure why they want to take something they have done such a good job with and make it less fun, less interesting while also making it contribute less.
Also, this change doesn’t really make Prim Wave easier to use. The challenge of prim wave was getting out a ton of flame shocks to set it up, and for some reason that challenge is still there so the difficulty level remains the same. If anything its actually more challenging now if Prim Wave doesnt apply flame shock. All this did was make it so we dont press lava burst right after, but thats the part that felt the best lol.
3 Likes
- Primordial Wave has been redesigned – Now deals a high amount of damage to all targets affected by your Flame Shock.
- Developers’ notes: Primordial Wave is a complicated spell to manage and get optimal use out of. We’re adjusting it to be more of a big damage impact upon activating the ability rather than priming your next Lava Burst to hit many targets.
Yeah, re-reading this and I think this is not good. How does this Prim Wave change reflect what is said in the Developer note here?
You want to focus on Prim Wave being a “big damage upon activating” spell, and you want to get rid of the complexity from “having to prime Lava Burst to hit many targets”, but…the new Prim Wave still requires you to get flame shocks out in order to cleave? That is the exact same thing as priming your lava burst to hit many targets, minus pressing Lava burst. Instead of priming lava burst, we would now be priming Primordial Wave in the exact same way we had to prime Lava Burst before.
This doesnt make any sense, the only step that was removed here was pressing Lava Burst, which was the most exciting part of Primordial Wave. Do you guys realize the most difficult aspect of priming current Primordial Wave was getting out Flame Shocks? This change doesn’t remove that difficulty…
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I have a new suggestion/feedback on how to make Prim Wave a good button on its own while still providing Lava burst cleave in a much less complex way:
-Make Prim Wave work with mastery so it overloads. Thematic, looks cool, makes it more fun to press, etc
-Make Prim Wave spread flame shocks instead of requiring flame shocks to spread. Target cap prim wave cleave to 5(?) targets, and have it apply flame shocks to those 5 targets
-Make it still work with Lava burst, so after pressing Prim wave, your next Lava burst will cleave onto your flame shocked targets
What this would do is make it so Prim Wave does decent damage by itself when you activate it by cleaving, overloading and spreading flame shock, and then gives you more cleave following that by pressing Lava burst for cleave.
However, this also makes Prim Wave management easier because it would be applying 5 flame shocks, so with liquid magma totem and our own single applications, we can get a lot of lava burst cleave in an easier less complicated way. This could even make it so Liquid magma totem isn’t required for prim wave anymore as well.
This also puts even more emphasis on overloading, which is by far the best and most fun part of elemental shaman. Press Prim wave that overloads and cleaves onto 5 targets+applies flame shocks to them>press Lava burst that cleaves onto your flame shocked targets. It would be a lot more forgiving and less complex, but more fun imo.
If this change goes through I will actually drop my elemental shaman entirely. Casting prim wave into lava burst was the most enjoyable part of the spec to me. I also cant see this as being anything other than a huge nerf if it actually doesnt give you lava surge anymore, im extremely disappointed. Not to mention, just flat out removing Ancestral Guidance, and giving us nothing in return, why? The notes say because resto shamans use it with ascendance… So what? Their reasonings are just not making any sense whatsoever. It’s baffling.
Also calling it “complicated” is insulting, I don’t want to be rude but it really makes me wonder who is making these changes…
3 Likes
Would it be better to make it a passive?
“Lavabursts cast with lava surge hit all flame shock targets”.
Actually reduces complexity.
Visually cool.
Loses a button.
Yeah I’ll be real if the change goes live like this I don’t even think I’ll be playing. Either unsub or just a different version of WoW. I am just tired of things like this happening, I don’t mind reworks and changes but this change is very random imo and it also felt kind of rushed for Ele. I’ve been loving ele so much and all of a sudden they decide to take one of the best parts of it and make it worse. It won’t be a big deal if they listen to feedback here and we have time but we will see. Again the change itself does not even align with the developer notes, it doesn’t reduce complexity at all.
They could make Prim wave less complex and more fun though, I’ve made a suggestion on how to do that ie baking liquid magma totem into Pwave (pwave cleaves 5 targets and spreads flame shock to them), allowing Pwave to work with our mastery and retaining the lava burst cleave. This also reduces a button we have to press that feels kind of meaningless (liquid magma totem). Really hope they do this or at least revert the change for ele.
4 Likes
Honestly I am hoping that they forgot to add an additional ability or tooltip on primordial wave.
The problem isn’t pressing LB after pressing prim wave.
The problem is having to press LMT+FS(tab target)+FS(tab target+Prim wave(tab target) then LB if you’re wanting max potential.
Honestly at this point I’ve dropped LMT and play without it, despite being a slight DPS loss and the play style is much smoother. This has worked in keys up to +14(timed)
Ele should be able to apply FS just as easily as Enhancement… aka using one ability.
3 Likes
I agree 100% baking magma totem into prim wave is the way to go and actually accomplishes their supposed stated goal.
Tbh, I’m viewing this from more of a pvp oriented angle and I understand that’s not super popular, but it’s obvious it’s kinda getting overlooked here by blizz. Having that on demand instand lb is huge for pvp. Unless the change has prim wave hitting the main target for substantial amounts higher also backed by all the synergies lava burst has it’s just a huge nerf all the way around. And at that point I would rather just take damage reductions instead of going the direction of hard casting more lava bursts.
1 Like
that doesnt solve the problem of applying flame shocks, which is the only complexity/set up there really is to it, it’s why the change doesnt make sense in the first place. also, we’d be losing the button that feels the best to press (to me at least, the combo of it + lb)… not to mention, many syngergies are tied into it that would then need to be addressed, summoning an ancestor, the haste talent etc. Also, it’s a nerf in pvp no matter what to get rid of on demand lava surge.
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I am also looking at it from primarily a pvp angle, but also an m+ angle. Agree with everything you said.
Baking liquid magma totem into primordial wave would be such a good gameplay change and QoL change. Removing the need to place that totem every time before prim wave would be great, because it really doesn’t add anything to the gameplay nor fun factor of playing ele. Making prim wave cleave to 5 targets and apply flame shocks to them is much more engaging and fun, and it’s also cool to have prim waves shooting at multiple targets. Making it work with ele mastery is the solution to making it more fun to press as its own spell.
For m+ you could just walk up to a pack of 5 and press prim wave>LB immediately whereas right now you’d need to Press Liquid magma totem>1 flame shock>prim wave.
In a pack of 7 mobs you would be able to just single target flame shock x2>prim wave>LB, but on live you have to liquid magma totem>single target flame shock x3>prim wave>lb.
For PvP it gets rid of the annoyance of liquid magma totem. People are usually spread in pvp, by pillars or standing in front of their healer so enemy dps have a harder time pushing through to cc the healer, and that means sometimes you only get 1-2 flame shocks from liquid magma totem. Plus it’s 1 less rotational button and in this case that’s great because LMT feels hollow to me. This would be a win for ele gameplay overall in pve and pvp.
The proposed changes here remove the extra step of liquid magma totem while also reducing the amount of ST flame shocks you need to get out in every pack. It’s essentially like a mini ascendance activation effect 1 less target.
Summing up the thread: How to keep current Primordial Wave Lava Burst interaction while making it less complex and making Prim Wave itself more fun to press:
Replace Liquid Magma Totem with a new talent, Primordial Overload (or w/e name). Primordial Overload: Your Primordial Wave now cleaves up to 5 targets and applies Flame Shock to them. Additionally, Primordial Wave now works with Mastery: Elemental Overload.
Why this change would line up more with the Developer goals for Prim Wave:
This would be such an insanely good change to Primordial Wave gameplay. It would reduce the complexity of setting up for Lava Burst cleave by giving us more flame shocks on activation, it would give Prim wave slightly more maelstrom generation, do a bit more damage and it would also look really awesome when it overloads. The hardest part of Prim wave is getting out flame shocks before activating it, this helps that issue a ton without removing the lava burst interaction a lot of us love.
This also removes 1 button from the Primordial Wave set up (liquid magma totem) which is great because Liquid Magma totem doesn’t feel like an exciting capstone nor an integral part of gameplay. A talent like this replacing Liquid Magma totem also makes more sense since it’s pathing down from Primordial Wave talents.
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