Prejudice against survival hunter

You might as well link to me a bunch of videos of Shadowlands ranged Survival. People stuck to melee as a challenge mode; this wasn’t an optimal or even particularly effective way of PvPing. This is why 100% of the things you just linked are non-competitive content. Look at those PvP videos you linked; for any of the opponents doing anything better than keyboard turning and/or trying to run away instead of fighting, they are depending heavily on ranged combat. And these are the cherrypicked examples.

If you go to any PvP guide they will tell you the goal is to stay at range as much as possible. That’s because the class is intended and tuned to be played at range and it’s much safer for the Hunter to do so. The fact that a melee approach is novel enough to put it in the title should tell you that this isn’t a regular thing and is instead a personal challenge.

As for the PvE example: he’s massively overgearing the instance, stacked with world buffs, having all healers focus on him, and having all DPS do mostly auto attacks and other light damage only. This is an incredibly bad example of a melee-focused PvE build. It’s obviously a novelty challenge. If you look to classic WoW’s competitive raiding most Hunters aren’t bothering with any melee attacks at all; not even a melee weaving approach.

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My favourite part of those videos is how every time he’s going up against someone who does fight back and has a skill level beyond endless keyboard to try to face a target jumping around them, he’s out to ranged and kiting immediately. In a video about being a melee Hunter, whenever there’s a remotely difficult fight he’s out to ranged again. Most people should get the hint that melee is a deliberately handicapped mode.

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SV will never be good as melee. Not when the game director says things like “we dont want hunters to feel forced to play SV”. That’s basically saying they will never be the top dps hunter spec. Sv will be unwanted until it goes back to being ranged like most people want.

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No, that clearly cannot be. After all, everyone knows we’re supposed to be type casting our spells! Only noobs do not. I’ll even provide evidence for it!

All hunters were playing this way back then, if you disagree you clearly are just being a stubborn fool ;>. You can’t even say he’s bad at PVP, he’s a merciless gladiator!

(Obvious sarcasm here gang)

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Copy paste from reddit by user named Shelassa

Ion Hazzikostas participated in an [interview] where he said the following:

Question: The Hunter community is still split on the issue of the melee spec even two expansions after its introduction. With your new stance of “class over spec” and more ranged abilities returning to the class, what does it mean for Survival in the long term?

Ion Hazzikostas:

That’s a good question. I think part of what led Survival to a melee space to begin with was trying to differentiate Survival from Marksmanship.

The rotations over the years had become very very similar

— OK you might have a couple more magical-seeming shots in the Survival space. Beast Mastery was very clearly its own thing with its clear niche as the pet-based spec. But then you had these two ranged specs that basically did a lot of ranged shots in their rotation.

Some of that is actually fallout from the shift that we did in Cataclysm going into Mists.

We moved from the old-school talent trees

that could probably better support types of play styles and utility without having to build a whole spec around them. Having a tree like Survival that was about traps and utility and a little bit of melee stuff in there — that worked when it was something that you could put points into as a broader class initiative. But then turning it into its own spec ultimately led us down a path of duplicating a lot of Mark’s abilities.

We want to keep melee as part of the unique identity of Survival

but in Shadowlands and beyond, as we start to think about what classes should look like in future expansions, it’s important that there will be this sort of universal base of what defines a Hunter. All Hunters should have access to ranged attacks and Survival Hunters can be ones that specialize in melee but not necessarily at the expense of the universal skillset that everyone had as a level 5 or level 10 Hunter because that’s what being the class means

I’m okay with that

He also said it was mostly for new players picking up the class not existing hunters.
# mesCom 2017 World of Warcraft: Legion Patch 7.3 Interview

It is a melee spec for a class that has traditionally being range. I think that a lot of existing hunters, they are all hunters because they want to be a range class, and so we don’t necessarily expect them or want them to feel like they should be changing; but for new players picking up that class, it is an intriguing option

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Well, if you look at this thread, Ion is clearly right that there are some hunter players that are very hostile to the idea of even 1/3 of hunter specs being melee. And it’s no secret that most fight design is hostile to melee right now and a lot of group/raid leaders want to stack ranged because of that.

But your personal dislike for a spec is not a good argument for deleting it. And if you want a ranged spec with Serpent Sting, Explosive Shot and Lock and Load, you know where to find it. (No, it’s not exactly the same, but few specs are exactly the same 5 expansions later.)

Hunter is WoW’s premier pet class and the only one to use actual animals as pets. (I am not arguing to delete Lone Wolf for this reason though!) If you want to get your hands dirty and fight side by side with a pet, the only other spec that does that is Unholy, which is aesthetically and mechanically VERY different. So a Rexxar spec makes sense as one of several options for hunters.

No one should feel forced into it, but that’s the opposite of what is happening now, people feeling forced away from it, which is also bad.

Not exactly the same, it’s not even in the same galaxy?!?

My personal Dislike of the spec comes from the fact it exist because it deleted my favorite Spec in the game and even after trying MM it was not even a little close (why I’m not even bothered with retail anymore and waiting for WotLK classic hopefully). And as long as Range exist Melee is going to have to be handicapped to the point where ranged players do not feel forced to play it (or you will see some really really upset people that makes all this look pleasant)

which is also bad.

after seeing how many of those Melee SV people are opposed to the 4th spec idea it makes it a lot harder for me to really care on that last part. (ones that are open to it I do feel some sympathy for.)

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if a Rexxar spec makes sense where is my sylvanas spec or my Plate wearing Shaman Thrall spec? (basing the classes off the heroes is just major silliness at this point).

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No you can’t. You really can’t.

Survival in vanilla was basically a pvp-only spec designed so that you could survive melee better to get back to range due to the deadzone. And literally nobody went past 30 points in survival in vanilla, because the 31 point talent for survival was the worst ability in the entire game - not just the worst hunter ability, but the worst ability, factually speaking.

No, it’s really not. I played a 31/20 MM/Surv build in classic, and then once survival didn’t suck I went survival and stayed survival through the expose weakness/wyvern sting days in BC into the lock and load era and until the survival spec that I’d grown to love over ten years literally disappeared.

There was never a time when melee hunter wasn’t a literal joke before Legion. The only thing any hunter ever wanted to go into melee for was to put a trap at your feet before trap launcher was added.

Once survival had stabilized in focus, it stayed largely the same for many years. It was a spec focused around using elemental arrows, being mobile, and managing resources and dots around procs. It offered a very agile, quick, and reactive playstyle that forced me to constantly be aware of my resources, my buff bar, and my dots so that I didn’t waste damage. It was a unique playstyle unlike anything offered by almost any other class… and when it disappeared, I literally lost all motivation to play the character I’d been with since day 1 of burning crusade(I rerolled Draenei in BC after being a NE Hunter for Vanilla). I managed to level that character through Legion and BFA but never really enjoyed it and didn’t play much. And I can’t even bring myself to log into it now… as you can see, this character is still 50.

The ‘Survival is a melee spec’ joke existed because its 31 pt talent was Lacerate - a melee bleed that did 133 damage over 21 seconds and didn’t scale with anything. And… well, it was the worst ability in the game. Nothing else boasted that low damage. So, naturally Lacerate went away a few patches into Vanilla when they did the first hunter rework.

This is what frustrates me the most. I played both survival and MM. I tried MM frequently because it was almost always parsing at slightly better numbers. But it was such a different playstyle. MM was a stationary turret feel. You stood still, used a lot of slower abilities that individually did more damage. While Survival was all about quick, agile abilities. You rarely used cast time abilities and rarely had to stand still… but none of your stuff hit particularly hard upfront.

Saying they’re similar is like saying Affliction and Destruction are similar because ‘they both cast spells and are warlocks’.

The ONLY people who thought they were similar were MM hunters who had never really learned how to maximize survival. Anyone who was ACTUALLY a survival hunter knew how different they were because that was why they were survival despite survival typically parsing slightly lower.

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(because I hate when people try to hide behind alts… Eleshakai is my former hunter main - I switched to that character to show her unleveled state.)

People are hostile to the idea because in order for 1 of 3 hunter specs to be melee… one group of hunters had to literally lose their spec.

NOBODY would be hostile to the idea of 1 of 4 hunter specs being melee, because that would’ve just been ‘hey look there’s a new playstyle to play’.

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Hunter is WoW’s premier archer class and the only one to use actual bows as weapons. If you want to get your hands dirty and fight side by side with a bow, the only other spec that does that is MM, which is aesthetically and mechanically VERY different. So a archer spec makes sense as one of several options for hunters.

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Ironically, many of us want a 4th spec to prevent exactly what happened to RSV from happening to current SV.

And yet many SV players are against even that idea that is meant to be a compromise and satisfy as many players as possible. You’re sitting there judging people who are upset for the very thing you’re defending the current spec against because it already happened once before.

Help argue for a 4th. How Blizz implemented current SV was a huge mistake and leaves a horrible precedent. You have good reason to be worried about blizz up and deleting the current spec at some point because thst already happened to old SV. Let’s work together and help fix that. A 4th spec not only ensures everyone gets what they want, but it would also act as an admission on Blisz’s part. That how they implemented the current SV was a mistake that shouldn’t be repeated. Outright removing specs like they did is a terrible move, regardless of how one feels about current SV or not.

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We’ve all seen this before. All it shows is that Ion has a very poor understanding of the Hunter class and its history. For crying out loud, he’s trying to argue that SV and MM became more similar over time. Go look at how they played in Classic v.s. MoP or WoD. It’s such an easily-proven fallacy it’s shameful that anyone buys into it, let alone the lead developer. He’s also arguing that SV’s uniqueness depended on talent trees and that was lost in MoP… even though all important, defining actives and passives were preserved and going from Cata to MoP SV played more or less identically. He’s just doing what he always does: braindumping random thoughts just for the sake of having a response that sounds vaguely reasonable (even though it’s not reasonable at all).

Yes. That’s why we are not basing our arguments off personal dislike. The fact of the matter is Survival used to be a very fun and widely enjoyed spec that fit well within the class identity and the expectations of its playerbase, and it provided some much-needed additional exploration into ranged weapon archetypes not seen in the other specs. A newer group of developers then went nuts with their “specs need to be their own separate micro-classes” philosophy and turned Survival into a melee spec purely for the sake of having a tokenistic uniqueness (even if it’s unique via weakness) and the spec has been a dumpster fire ever since. The clear, objective conclusion here is that it was a bad move and they should have instead iterated upon what they already had. They spent a whole bunch of extra effort to make the spec worse.

This is all true whether or not you personally like Survival, so really this can easily be turned around: your personal love for a spec is not a good argument for preserving it. It’s utterly ridiculous how much they are bending over backwards here to appeal to such a tiny niche of players.

Not only is this response snide but it is a total waste of time. It’s not even remotely the same at any level. The identity and playstyle is totally different. The spells are basically just named after the original ranged Survival versions with few other similarities and zero interaction with anything else in the toolkit, not to mention the baseline elements that never fit within the identity or playstyle of ranged Survival (namely Aimed Shot).

And history has shown that this is a tiny niche of players. It’s absurd to expect an entire third of the most popular class of the game to be handicapped to specifically appeal to this group of people. For the overwhelming majority of the people playing the class, making Survival melee doesn’t add an option but rather removes one.

Besides, we already have a pet spec: Beast Mastery. It doesn’t make sense to effectively have ranged BM and melee BM. If they want a melee pet-focused spec, they should make a talented stance within Beast Mastery. That way the melee fanatics can get their melee Hunter fix without destroying BM while the rest of the Hunter playerbase keeps another ranged weapon option in a game sorely lacking in ranged weapon options.

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Ya know, that’s actually a pretty good concept. Kind of like Lone Wolf vs Non-Lone Wolf for a while… make it so BM hunters have a choice at the start of their trees. If they choose melee, a lot of their bow abilities get lost in exchange for similarly purposed melee abilities and then they get a playstyle built off of the idea of fighting right alongside their pet. I always felt like the FANTASY of the BM hunter fit more closely to rexxar than the fantasy of the survival hunter did, so I think putting that as a talent choice in BM would have probably been a reasonable way to do it.

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Yep. The ironic part about the rework is supposedly MM and SV were too similar to one another. They then went right back to making BM and SV compete for the same thematic niche.

Ion has been anything but reasonable on the matter.

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I remember seeing this complaint occasionally back in the Cata days… and what it essentially amounted to was “I’m an MM hunter, I switched specs and don’t know what I’m doing so I’m just doing the same thing I did as an MM hunter and my dps sucks. This spec has no purpose and is too similar to MM so it has no identity.”

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you didn’t need to make a tally yourself, that info is easily surmised by simply looking at the publicly available Warcraft Logs or Raider.io figures that show the breakdown of unique characters and their class/specs that have logs recorded or scores on raider.io

For example this graph showing only dps over the entire Mythic+ Season 1 of Shadowlands:

Survival hunters are so under populated/represented that they are virtually a flatline, barely 0.3% percent of the overall ranged dps.

According to the graph, there’s ~75000 unique Marksman Hunters, 12,000 BM Hunters, and under 1,600 Survival Hunters

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Survival are melee… so wouldn’t they be excluded from that chart on principle?

Not saying you’re wrong about how many of them there are… but like… I wouldn’t have thought they’d fit on a ranged dps population chart anyways…

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yeah had edited it, i keep thinking of 6.2, the good ol’ days.

Even with the edit, rip, SV is the least populated overall dps spec. literally more arcane mages than sv hunters lol!

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