Practise Key

Gameplay Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
1

From running Mythics + a lot with various groups the one thing I wish I had in some dungeons was more practise.

Practise with timing Cooldowns
Knowing what the tank can / cannot handle
How to Handle certain affixes in certain locations
Practising different Hero timings
Practising a different strategy
etc etc etc

So if the M+ is going to make it into shadowlands, I’d like to propose that we can make practise keys.
These keys in all ways are similar to normal keys with the differences that:

  1. It does not reflect on the armoury and therefore doesn’t count on RIO
  2. It does not count towards the end of week M+ chest reward
  3. It does not give gear at the end of the dungeon
  4. Restarting the key does not change its level
  5. Is always 1 level less of the “Live” key

This could be an NPC that you talk to or just a vendor or awarded along with your “Live” key at the weekly chest (think NPC is best IMO).

STORY TIME: -
When it comes to making M+ groups. One of my most successful runs with friends who don’t M+ non-stop was when we all had the same dungeon within a few levels of each other, at the time I was trying to get 15 UR for my KSM, luckily 2 friends on mine had 14 UR’s and we made it a task to time the 15.

We first did a 14, it feel through so hard. Wiped on 3rd cause one of the people forgot about what upheaval did as they had taken a break for a bit and ended with 10 shroom stacks that I couldn’t save people from. We complete it with 10 mins over the timer as the last boss had people standing all over the place and some bad tank positioning. (No to mention a few accidental pulls)

No worries, we go into another 14 UR. This time, things went a lot smoother, we skipped the massive bridge things (can’t remember the name) without anyone dying (grumble grumble, Nullification grumble), didn’t pull the extra ticks as we walked passed. The Void near the worm didn’t get accidentally pulled (Some bubble steed needed for 3rd still). But we timed the key with 5 mins to spare, 17 mins quicker then our previous run.

So we tried the 15 UR, and because of our previous runs we pretty much all knew what we were doing, what we were pulling, how when where to use CDs, when to expect a Hero etc etc. We then beat the timer by 30 seconds from some mishaps on last boss.

and I remember one of the people asking, “Wish we could do that more often”. But doing that requires the stars to align and give us 3 of the same key.
STORY END

8 Likes
2

I actually kind of like this idea. If it was implemented like you suggested, it would have no effect on real keys, and would simply give a group a chance to plan their route, CDs, hero times etc IF they choose to invest the time into it

If you’re trying to establish a group to push really high keys, I could see this being very useful.

Sort of like the proving grounds, but for keys

I like this idea

2 Likes
3

I like the idea. I always run my own keys and I don’t always get lucky with the ones I get. When I finally get the one I need I’d be down to practice with some people.

As you say though, that’s the advantage of having a group of people to run keys. You get in a good night of cue’s and hope you pull the same key a couple times to practice. Makes a big difference when you go right back into a key you just failed.

4

I still think the best idea is to get rid of keys, and just have a system that lets you form or join a group for any dungeon, one level higher than the highest level you’ve done.

5

I mean there is already a system like that in place. Started a key, things went south, not timing it? Np, work your way to the end of the dungeon, test cooldowns/hero/tank survivability, wipe on last boss sub 10%, go out and reset the instance.

Congratulations, now you get another shot at the dungeon, albeit 1 level easier, which is good cuz you couldnt time the higher.

Now try to see what you’ve learned. You either get through it now and have strategy in place, or game humbles you further and you get to drop it down again.

1 Like
6

Except that it isn’t.

You can’t test different hero timings in a key already in progress unless you’ve messed up the key before the first hero, even then, what if you wanted to see if it was plausible to do a massive pull at the start and hero then? You can’t do that if you’re already half way through the dungeon.

If you’ve dropped the key a level there’s no guarantee that you’ll get the same dungeon if you time in the second run. So now you’ve got to wait until you get a key at the level you wanted to try it at. I mean that fine if you have multiple of the same key in the same group, but thats down to RNG.

Strategy can also change, even tho a practise key wouldn’t fix it in its entirety, you could practise an adapted strategy on a key lower without dropping the key constantly, as lower the key you have the more inaccurate the results will be. Something survivable on a 17 could be not survivable on an 18 and then you could practise an adapted strategy on the 16 (if you chose to lower) or a 17 if /when you get the same key again. This could also change based on affixes. You aren’t going to try and pull the whole of Waycrest Courtyard on a week with Bursting, but you might try on a week with Teeming Volcanic, but then you find the adds hit too hard on Fortified but what about a Tyrannical week with Teeming Quaking?

Dropping a key does not allow you to practise this. You either try something new and hope everyone is on the same page and nothing goes wrong that could skew results, or you tank the key and pray to RNG that if you time the key-1 that you’ll get the same dungeon again for round 2.

Also, if the key dropping was perfectly fine for practise, then the MDI wouldn’t need a tournament realm in order to practise on for the MDI :slight_smile:

7

So why don’t they change it to whatever key you get, you’re stuck with that one and only that one dungeon for the week.

That way you can run it multiple times, work it up to 15, not beat it, it stays the same, now you can bring it back up to 15, and try a new approach…didn’t beat it, do it all over again?

I guess I just don’t understand the appeal? Let’s spend hours upon hours upon multiple attempts on the same dungeon/key/affixes, with no reward, just to beat 1 dungeon?..now you’re really only going to have people who log in, do their one dungeon, log out for the week.

No more pushing keys. Forget your AD 16 key. I completed a 17 last week, I’m going to spend 3 days trying to find a way to complete an 18.

I still think that trying new techniques on lower keys would be just fine. You know what to expect already, just gauge the difference. Okay that went a bit smoother than normal, we’ll try that next time. Hey we did just fine, but healer burned through quite a bit of mana, we took on more damage than normal…I don’t think we can try that this week at a 15 with Fort. The keys upgrade in a linear fashion. You can, more or less, gauge how it’ll be 3 levels harder

8

Because if get a key with a dungeon that you don’t like or is terrible for that week you’re stuck with it and its 100% a dead key, can’t even just complete it a re-roll which would cause a much bigger outcry then blizzard stopping people from just deleting them.

The appeal is that I can practise a dungeon at a set level without having to have tons of people who are willing to burn their key just to try something. It isn’t something forced and completely optional, not sure what you’re trying to get at here?
This’ll change nothing for the people who want to log-in do their key then log off and if people want to try and push a key then you don’t try a practise run. Some people already don’t do lower keys then there highest cause of IO
, so I don’t know what point you’re trying to make? Seems a bit incoherent and struggling to understand the point you’re making.
Or maybe you’re misunderstanding?

If you don’t want to spend hrs upon hrs practising a key and just want to get in the dungeon and try and time / complete win or lose, then go for it. I don’t get what my suggestion has anything to do with stopping people trying to get their keys done. If a friend chooses to use their key for practise then the problem is with the person, I don’t have a solution for people who are selfish. That doesn’t stop people right now being “I don’t want to tank my key, so I’m only gonna take Meta classes, all the others can rot”

And honestly, I’d like to spend 3 days with the same group finding a way to beat an 18 Shrine, Shrine is a really tricky dungeon and 1 mess up more often then not causes a dead key, I don’t see it often in the LFG and even less do I find a high level shrine in the LFG. My group of friends has had a shrine 16 or higher a total of once in the past 3 weeks. So even if we did have an 18 shrine we’d like to time, we’d of dropped the key a couple times from wiping as we were testing things out, then timed it, got a different dungeon and haven’t been able to try again for 2 weeks, which the affixs have changed and (at least this week) we’d of had to of changed strat cause of Sanguie and quaking meaning we can’t just pull everything from the Scorn room on top of each other and burst AoE, cause all the little dudes would create a sanguine pool and healed everyone up.

You don’t think you can do it with Fort. Why guess when you can try it on a 14 and see?
Healer burned through mana, but was that because casts went off or because the pull was big? Did the DPS use their cooldowns? Did the Tank use defensives? Did the healer have cooldowns? What about with Hero instead of somewhere else?

I don’t want to gauge the difference, because then you have to test it to see if your gauge was correct. If you’re wrong, then you could of don’t it differently, also 3 levels is HUGE. Try running a 15 as you would a 12. Or running an 11 the same as an 8.

I can double time an 8 AD on a 405 healer with a 410 tank and 400 - 415 dps. Could I do the same for a 11?

I almost doubled a 10 WCM with a 420 healer, could I heal the same pulls despite not having any mana issues on a 13?

9

But wouldn’t all of this take away from idea that M+ is based on?

Mob damage and health scales with each key. Affixes are mixed up and thrown together to create more of a challenge.

I already know what next weeks affixes are. To spend all of this week practicing to beat that challenge, takes away from M+ timer.

Why not just remove the death penalty when dying? That way you can do what you want and if you die, no biggie? The timer and the death penalties are to make it a challenge. As is the never ending scaling the higher keys go.

Being able to practice for hours and go in and 3 chest it…defeats the purpose doesn’t it?

10

I’ve been saying for a while that they need to just make a holodeck on the Proving Grounds. Accept up to a full party, be able to generate a boss or trash pull scaled up to any difficulty, fill in missing members as needed.

11

Why does practising defeat the purpose of the challenge?
Does a WCM 17 suddenly become easier because you’ve timed a 16 compared to timing a 15?
If I did a 15 10 times does the 17 become a cake walk? What if I did the 15 100 times? 1000? 100000? How many 15’s can I do before the 17 is faceroll?

Because the timer, death penalty and the affixs are what make M+ what it is. I’m not asking them to be removed, Saying I want to practise with them isn’t asking for them to be removed either. If I want to do a dungeon where there’s no timer or death penalty, There’'s Normal, Heroic and Mythic 0. I just want to be able to practise higher keys without needing to beg borrow and steal from other people’s effort to do so. I more often then not re-do a key at a level I’ve already done just to practise it. To get better at it them. Does re-doing the same key level over and over with pugs to practise the same as asking to remove the challenge?

You are going to have to explain this one to me. I’ve read this over and over and over and I don’t understand how.
Why does practising to beat the timer take away from the timer?

I heard that people could solo Freehold normal by pulling half the dungeon at a time. I thought I’d give it a go. Failed miserably. So I initally pulled smaller, just the top half near first boss, then the bottom half.
Then as I got better I tried pulling them both together.

Did that take away from the challenge of trying to kill those mobs because I practised?
At least to me it didn’t. Its still a challenge to do it even those I’ve done both packs together even after 30+ times. If I messed up, I died. I just got better at executing it.

Not really? Cause that means that I’ve practise to the point where I’ve improved myself to the point where 3 chesting was possible, and that challenge is no longer all that difficult for me and in itself would give me a harder challenge to accomplish.

How else do I strive to improve if not to seek a harder challenge? If all I wanted to do was 10s for the weekly then I’m improve myself to time a 10 and go no further.

12

Practicing a 17 key, until you’ve gotten to the point of a 75% success rate, does seem to take away the challenge doesn’t it? You’ve done it 10 times In a row, a 100, a 1000, without fail. Now you go to do the actual key itself to upgrade. The challenge is gone.

I see it as an almost…a participation award type deal in a sense. Here, go practice with any negative outcome or drawback until you’re guaranteed to win, then come back and claim your prize. Rinse and repeat.

If that’s the case, there’s no point in having a timer or death penalty or having keys down grade. Just practice till it goes right, then put your key in and ace it no problems.

“How else do I strive to improve” - by taking on harder content. I get what you’re saying. But practicing in a fail free zone until you trivialize it, isn’t going to make that key any harder.

Instead of a practice key, why not bring back a Proving Grounds type deal where it you can essentially do what you’re wanting. Get people together, set a difficulty and choose a set of affixes and try there. Then let it be reflected upon your application to a run. Luci has completed an 18 WM with Fort, Sanguine, Explosive.

Practice key is just a way to make sure you don’t fail your key, and therefor eliminate the issue of downgrading said key.

If you can’t beat this week on a 16 in a practice key, even though you attempted it 25 times on your practice key, are you going to go ahead and run your actually key knowing that everything you tried, failed?

No malice, simple question. Devils advocate if you will. I don’t mind the overall idea of what you’re wanting. To strive and improve. But having an “I win” button without any backlash isn’t a good idea.

So perhaps another form that can reflect how far you’ve pushed yourself in a practice arena, while leaving keys as they are?

13

I don’t see why you have an issue with practice keys having zero downside

That’s raidings exact structure. Wipe on a boss until you trivialize it with zero negative impact on your failures…

Why is it an issue for dungeons and not raids?

14

I mean, I guess that’s what it looks like when you’re 4/8 Normal and don’t have to shell out for consumables on every pull all night.

That said, you can’t exactly be shy about breaking those out on a +16 either. Properly “practicing” higher keys can actually get expensive. So saying there’s no downside to wiping is only true at the trivial levels.

I dunno, I don’t see much point to practicing a whole keystone. Just don’t have them degrade. Let people select anything up to the highest thing they’ve completed on that dungeon, and one higher if they timed it. I’d be a lot more willing to teach and let people practice on my keystone if it didn’t actively penalize me.

1 Like
15

The only thing I’ll say to that is that you are never guaranteed to win. A 75% success rate is a 25% chance you’ll fail.

I welcome people challenging the idea, no malice taken as you haven’t called me an idiot yet :stuck_out_tongue:. If people don’t challenge an idea then it’ll never improve.
Tho to answer your question, probably not no. I’ll do what I’m currently doing on my 16 KR and just sit on it as I can’t find a group that I would be willing to try and time it with as KR is stressful enough as it is

That seems like the same as I was suggesting? Unsure what the difference is other then you have progress attached to it.

(Also I’m a dumbass and apprently never hit reply :crazy_face: )

16

That’s literally what a practice key would allow

Lol, Are you even reading what’s being suggested?

So a practice key?

A bartender with 2 jobs can’t stick to a raid schedule, what can I say? :upside_down_face:

17

My only issue is: there’s no downside to failing. Takes the challenge out of it.

There has to be an incentive to win. If keys don’t downgrade or you can practice until you win for sure, or your key doesn’t downgrade…then it’s like a participation ribbon for everyone.

18

That literally what raiding is.

So again, what’s the issue?

And unlike raiding, beating a practice key would give you nothing. It would only give you and your team a chance to experience it at -1 level of your key, whereas raiding allows you to fail and fail until you just win.

Then instead of moving to the actual boss, like you would a practice key, you just get the loot.

Also, what participation ribbon? They would give NO REWARD. You get nothing but experience from them. No loot, no io score, no nothing. There’s no incentive to run them other than wanting the experience

I really don’t see what the issue would be with it

19

Participation ribbon because there’s no repercussions from failing.

In a raid, if you don’t win: no loot, no progression.

In a key: you don’t win, key get downgraded.

That’s the downfall to not succeeding. Why not take your key, practice on that. If it works, hey great! Upgrade! If not, no biggie. You know better for next time. You don’t get kicked out of the dungeon the second the timer is up. So try it that way

Edit: if you think tanks and healers are sparse now…wait until they spend three quarters of their time in a practice key and only run their one key they practiced all day for. Rinse and repeat lol