Positive conversation about MoS/WCB

WoW Classic WoW Classic General Discussion
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With that said, and setting aside nochanges for a minute, how do you feel about these as overall game mechanics as you look back on them? Like, you got through it and achieved what you wanted to achieve, but do you feel that was a positive experience that you think others should have too?

Now bringing nochanges back into the equation, does that change anything for you? For example, did you feel that it wasn’t really a very positive experience but because that’s how Vanilla is, we should just accept it for what it is? Do you have other thoughts about it?

I appreciate your insights here, I never went through the PvP grind in Classic. I got to R11 (I think) in Vanilla but it was a very different thing back then. I had no intention of R14, I just liked doing PvP and so I ran flags for premades on my server when I had time.

No, I’ve been pretty clear the whole time that I try to view each change through its own lens. I don’t want changes for Era but I accept that sometimes changes are necessary and that sometimes there will be fallout for this.

Like, I wish we didn’t need the boon and that Blizzard didn’t have to make a change there, but they absolutely did and we’re all better for it, even if there was something that was lost as a result.

Feel free to go through my post history if you wanna get a broader view of my thoughts. Also, understand that how I feel about all of this has been evolving throughout these discussions. I think very much differently about changes in Era now than I did even in 2019.

Also if by…

… you mean MoS, then I’ve been pretty clear on my views for that. If you’re looking for competitive fairness, disallow Alliance from getting the buff entirely, don’t give them an easy way to get it. That’s just my view though and this thread’s purpose was to try to invite discussion around alternative solutions than just MoS or #nochanges. I’ve landed on a third option (remove it for Alliance) but that doesn’t mean it’s the only solution. I very much encourage you to think about how you might “solve” this differently.

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I agree with you that the next best option is to remove it for Alliance so people don’t even have to worry about getting it, so no need for me to think of a 2nd option.

However, the point still stands that I think the best option is to bring the change back…

Sorry not trying to be attacking. It’s hard to remember that some people aren’t just here to name call and such. Apologies!

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Bracket stacking felt good. I felt a mutual respect for my fellow ranker and appreciated that most people were respecting the brackets. Definitely an overall positive IMO.

Pool parties felt kinda weird. Spending hours getting 15 HKs on a bunch of different level ones is definitely not what I’d call PvP, but it’s one of those odd quirks that was kind of interesting. I didn’t hate it but I also don’t miss it.

I’m very much of the opinion that in general Era should be as #nochanges as possible. Weird quirks should be accepted as part of the game. I see it as something akin to speed running old games. There’s weird things about those old games that make speed running interesting. There are “bugs” that people exploit and you should never “fix” something like that after the community brings it into the meta or ever really.

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You’re welcome to that viewpoint and I understand why you have it, I’m just looking for an alternative. The core of my intent here is to ask that we accept both sides of the argument as it stands.

One viewpoint, yours, is that having MoS makes it so much more convenient to get that buff so you can remain competitive on the leaderboards. While I may not share that viewpoint and have a dim view of “parse culture” and the impact it’s having on the playerbase, I accept that this is something you’re passionate about and that humans, in general, like to be competitive about things. If I acknowledge that, I can’t help but accept your point of view here.

The other viewpoint is that Horde having WCB and Alliance not is just another one of those pieces of Classic that gives it charm. It was never meant to be balanced and that’s very obvious when you look at other differences in the factions. It does look like they were meant to be good at different things and in different ways. We know, with the benefit of 20 years of hindsight, that from a balanced gameplay perspective that wasn’t really all that good and this has since been corrected in a multitude of ways as WoW has progressed through various expansions. However, there exists a large group of players for whom balance isn’t really all that important and they are specifically here to embrace those imbalances and enjoy what Era has to offer.

Just like I don’t necessarily share your viewpoint on being a competitive DPS parser, I also don’t necessarily share the viewpoint that all imbalances are good. But just as accept your viewpoint as valid, I also accept this viewpoint as valid. So now I’m working from a place where both views are valid and looking for a solution that enables both parties to achieve their goals. For me, that’s disabling Alliance from getting WCB but I was hoping that if people could do this, it could generate other options that might be even better suited to Classic Era and the game it represents :slight_smile:

So I don’t hold your opinion against you, but if you wanted to try to set it aside for a bit and think outside the box here, I think that might be really beneficial. But if you don’t think so, that’s ok too! It’s always worth a shot.

Thanks for your insights. However I feel about these topics, I appreciate hearing your perspectives on it. If I disagree with you around any of these points down the line please know that I’ve read them and I acknowledge them. For whatever that’s worth.

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In full effect.

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after the changes we had 2 layers in Mankrik cluster for SW at the buff time, after they reverted it went right back to one layer

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I think it’s important to clarify that WCB is already accessible to the alliance and adding MOS doesn’t change that fact. Your alternative solution of removing alliance ability to get WCB is actually a much more significant change than adding MOS don’t you think?

Adding MOS doesn’t change the ERA gameplay whatsoever. It just makes it easier for alliance to get the buff they are already getting. Unless I am missing something?

This is my problem with the people who don’t like MOS. Aside from simply not wanting any change whatsoever to the game, I don’t see how anyone is negatively impacted by MOS.

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By an oversight that was never remedied.
Or maybe they thought nobody was crazy enough to take it this far.

…but to just say that it’s in the game and available to all Alliance is bs.

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At this point, I don’t think anybody is questioning that Alliance can get WCB and that it’s in the game right now, but it’s more a question of magnitudes.

Right now, those few who are truly invested in pushing the boundaries of the game invest the time in getting this, or those few whose guilds require it. All of the discussion surrounding this seems to indicate that people find this to be a pain and lament the fact that they have to but it also seems fair to say that this is niche and so that semblance of faction imbalance and intention is preserved.

When you add MoS though it’s now mainstream. There’s literally no reason why anybody shouldn’t get this, especially if you’re already getting an Ony buff at the same time. Now that semblance of imbalance is gone and something that was, for the most part at least, a Horde exclusive is no longer exclusive. That’s when I start to go down that road of “Well should other things be balanced too?” and I don’t like where that road takes me.

I truly believe the best solution is to leave well enough alone, but by my stated intentions in my first post I’m trying to respect the fact that players liked MoS because it greatly alleviated a pressure they felt in order to stay competitive. From that point of view, removing the Alliance capability to get the buff is the far better option. I suppose WCL would have to archive its current rankings so that it doesn’t have unbeatable records due to changes, but that’s about it.

I’ve been pretty clear that I’m not negatively impacted by MoS. I don’t play a melee but it certainly makes our raids easier. I just think that the game itself and what it represents is negatively impacted. Plus, I suppose, we don’t really need raids to be easier :wink: Anyway, I’m trying really hard to separate “what’s best for me” from “what’s best for the game”.

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I mean… it is a 100% factual statement. You can’t say you like Vanilla wow in all its imbalance and imperfections without acknowledging that that is part of it.

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I don’t think its accurate to say that WCB is “niche” for alliance or that it is not “mainstream”. Go to the warcraft logs homepage, click on vanilla, click rankings, and scroll down the list. I had to scroll to page 50 (5000 players!) just to start seeing DPS players on that list who did not use WCB.

Page 100 (10,000 players) still overwhelmingly using WCB on alliance. That is almost the entire population of our NA servers isn’t it?

Page 200 (20,000 players deep!) still the majority using WCB on alliance.

I wish I could share the links or the screenshots to make it easier to prove my point, but I am a nub user here I guess and it won’t let me.

The point I am making is that this is wow classic era. WCB is alive and well. After MOS was removed we are back in crossroads getting rend almost daily. This is true on our underpop Mankrik PVE server, and on the Whitemane cluster and I am sure it is true in Europe too.

I am trying to keep an open mind about how MOS negatively impacts anyone, but I just really can’t comprehend it - I haven’t heard a single argument that makes any sense. I think it’s mostly hyperbole and people who just hate any change for any reason.

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In this version of the game, this is a legitimate stance to take.

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That is a niche.

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Honestly, I’ll just take your word for it. I was actually going to ask whether WCL had data on this. It’s hard to compare because this doesn’t show you who’s an alt or not and even greater than 50% of the raiding population seems hard to believe if I’m being honest. Regardless though, it sounds like this may be more pervasive than I realized.

I stand by my stance that you could remove WCB and result in an equivalent experience but if this isn’t as niche as I thought, I will have to revisit that part of my argument. I’ll mull this over.

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I will add that I watched Kargoz’s video on it and I was underwhelmed. I thought he would have all kinds of compelling arguments about how MOS affected the game but instead it was essentially “I don’t like changes, please don’t change it”.

I’m not saying people aren’t allowed to think that way. I know a lot of people who dislike change in all areas of my life (family, work, etc.). I love this game as much as the rest of you, BECAUSE it is not the same as retail wow. That said, I do think some QoL changes for ERA are good for its overall health long term. I like that the factions are different, but I think they can be different and still be balanced.

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Blizz messed up royally. Tossed a dog a bone and then snatched it back.

Doesn’t help that MoS was in with a whole package of unsolicited changes either.

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True it is not perfect data but AFAIK the only data we have. I realize it is raiders and not just dungeon players or “casuals”, but they are not really affected by world buffs either way IMO.

Our discords all have rend channels to track drop schedules, and the cluster discord has rend channels and roles (@rendjunkies) where everyone gets pinged for last minute drops. We have many summoning teams in the barrens and fill the hill with alliance players hoping and coping for no backfire :laughing:

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True and Kargoz’s video was mostly about all of the changes as a whole and not any one piece individually.

Personally I don’t really care that the guild interface changed. Once I got used to using it, it actually is more useful. I also didn’t care that druids could use polearms, mainly because it isn’t breaking anything. Most if not all polearms suck for druids in ERA anyway. I kind of thought the PVP changes were going to water down the game with PVP gear and GMs at every corner, but when you realize the kind of rigging that was going on behind the old system, I think the new system is more respectful of people’s time. It is still quite difficult to get rank 14, just in a different way.

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How it’s been for so long… So much time wasted on backfires when there was never any need for it, considering all can get the buff anyways…

Bring back MoS to ALL ERA SERVERS!

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Ok, I’ve had a chance to mull this over and I have some thoughts.

I went and looked at WCL and am seeing the same thing you are but I’m worried this is misleading. The data is sorted by ranking, which means the highest DPS overall. It actually stands to reason that WCB is going to skew heavily on the highest rankings.

This listing seems to cover all time, so everybody who has been in a logged fight shows up on this list. The date only shows the month/day but does not show the year; however, we know it dips back into at least 2023 since it shows months that we have not yet experienced in 2024 yet. Is there a way to tell the year? I dunno! I actually wonder if this list covers all of Classic from 2019 and onwards.

What I feel like we need here is a list of player entries sorted by date, then we can see how many players are getting WCB these days as compared to how many players are not. I’m not sure how to pull that up on WCL, do you know how?

At this time I’m not ready to abandon that point only because I think the data we’ve looked at so far doesn’t really support the conclusion you’ve made. All it’s really telling us is that the highest DPS is achieved through WCB, which I suppose should be pretty obvious now that I’m thinking about it after the fact.

I’d like to know what percentage of logging Alliance players are getting WCB these days.

EDIT: Side note, you said you got out to page 100 and the majority of players still had WCB. I suspect you made the same mistake I did on the first go and forgot to filter to just the Alliance faction. When I do that, page 50 shows maybe 30% of players having WCB. So just a thing to keep in mind.