Please Say it Ain't So- Don't ruin M+

"So other than the first raid, what exactly will the point of End-of-Dungeon loot be? With no Titanforging and it dropping a lower item level than Heroic raid, this gear will be replaced relatively quickly.”

This dataminded change to Mythic plus is a horrible. Currently, my guild raids and does Mythic plus, but by far the most enjoyable content for the core group is pushing keys. Raid is like a two day a week ordeal the majority of us begrudgingly attended. Mythic plus keeps us engaged especially in content right now where everyone is waiting on Pre-patch. It’s an efficient way to gear an alt, challenge yourself, and maintain a tight social network with your five closest friends. Unlike the 20 man content where little Johnny dies every fight, but we carry him because he is in the guild. I imagine lots of guilds are like this. Why push the game more in this direction? I don’t want to be logging in twice a week. I might as well cancel my sub. Sure, raids were what the game was built on, but now most Mythic plus and PVP consider it the avenue for you free epics.

Currently, there is a slim chance of me improving my gear in Mythic Plus, but there is still a chance. Downgrading the loot table creates another bit of content with a shelf life. I mean I am tired of getting the big red button in my chest, but I know that somewhere out there the Geti’ikku with that socket is waiting on me. We are not even pushing 25s, but the content still offers us satisfaction with that slim option of loot or buying that last azurite piece.

I don’t know why you want to make PVP and Mythic plus some niche aspect of the game. You should be focusing more on making Mythic Plus engaging. I would suspect most of the streamers you hand out those beta keys are spamming Mythic plus or arenas besides leveling in Shadowlands. Where are the cool mythic plus titles, mounts and competitive gear? Instead I am hearing four ranged classes are good and Mythic Plus is nerfing rewards. Come on Blizzard you can do better.

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Feels like it’s a case of too many fragile egos.

There’s a battle of opinion over which content is harder, raiding or mythic plus, and there are players on both sides whose psyche is scarred when they see players getting gear they would like from places they don’t want to go.

Or… it could be that the credibility of the raid content is seriously undermined by the overwhelmingly popular response to mythic plus content, and instead of fully embracing that interest, they’re just going to sabotage it so that raiding appears to be the “most enjoyable” way to get geared.

I can’t claim that more people like mythic plus, or that raiding shouldn’t be the most important activity in the game, but personally I think it’s ludicrous to suggest that mythic plus isn’t a primary focus for an overwhelming number of players.

Under no circumstances could I reclear Ny’alotha night after night and find it enjoyable, and yet two years later I am still getting a thrill from pushing the same dungeons keys.

Not sure where I wanted to go with this rant, but ultimately I agree with OP. Any intentional mismanagement of the mythic plus system is Blizzard cutting off their nose to spite their face.

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I don’t think there’s much difference of opinion on this. Mythic raiding is harder than M+15 - or in SL M+14 - so M+ is the easiest way to get mythic raid ilvl loot. M+32, or whatever the maximum is that has been cleared, is harder than Mythic raiding - or, say, on a par with world first Mythic raiding.

This is a matter of personal preference. I much prefer reclearing Ny’alotha. However, I was still forced into M+ when I wanted to gear quickly. M+ is the most popular only because it’s the most efficient way to get gear, not because people actually enjoy it more.

Blizzard is trying to adjust the system so that everyone can do the content they actually enjoy, and still gear equally fast, without having to do content they like less just because it’s more efficient for gearing. I think that’s a good goal.

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This statement is a problem for me. You can’t speak for everyone, nor can I, so claiming it’s popular only because of gear is impossible to prove and highly unlikely.

As for which is harder, I don’t know if you have any more progressed toons, but I can tell that we have 10/12 mythic raiders who couldn’t time a 15 without a full blown carry.

Ultimately I think raiding is more of a time commitment that deserves to be special, but I think that they are tarnishing an extremely popular form of content for the sake of some ideal that I don’t think is worth the cost. In fact, my prediction is that they will increase the reward of the m+ content when players come to recognize what a disappointment they’ve created, similar to the changes they made in BfA.

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It’s impossible to prove either way, but it’s extremely likely. When one method of gearing is much faster than other methods, players always flock to that method.

And yet the profile we have of someone that does both seriously - yours - suggests that 10/12 mythic is about as difficult as +20s. Your other raiders don’t need to time M+ to get rewards, anyway - nor does anyone else.

The fact is that +15 - or, rather, in SL, +14 - still provides mythic raid level gear, so you can’t really argue that it’s “tarnished”. The only thing they’re changing is that you can no longer spam M+ to get gear that’s nearly as good; the good gear will be on a weekly lockout, same as all other sources of gear.

Maybe they will lose a few people who like to spam M+ to gear up for a couple weeks, then unsubscribe. Then again, since those people unsubscribe, Blizzard wasn’t getting much money from them anyway. The only “ideal” that Blizzard is going for here is that people have to stay subscribed to gear up to the best gear, and that’s obviously good policy for a subscription based game.

That’s now how that works at all. I have raided top 100 with sub-20 world mythic kills. I have raided all but a single tier in this game and have run an embarrassing number of dungeons.

This may sound arrogant, but the limit to my progression is the people around me, which is entirely self-imposed. I joined this guild based on the friendships I had formed with players I met and have spent the last two years working to help them improve. We’ve gone from strength to strength with the goal of clearing further into each mythic tier, and I’m really proud of what we’ve done and the spirit of everyone involved. But there is a very small handful of players, around 7 of 30, who could handle a +20 key.

I think there’s a massive misconception that Mythic Raiders are faultless pros who are a step above average. The truth is that most mythic raiders are spoon-fed success in the form of addons, weak auras, and boss guides. They show up a few nights a week, are told where to stand and then fail all over the place until they finally understand the most basic instruction or die early enough on a kill that they don’t get in the way.

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You can say what you want, but you’re the random sample of your guild that we have, so the best bet is to take you as representative. For that matter, if we look at other posters, +20s are about as common as CE. +15s are way more common.

I think the truth is somewhere in between, but we could believe the latter of mythic raiders and still believe the same of those who push high keys. It’s not like there are many +20 tanks who say, “I don’t need to study the routes, I just know the dungeon well enough to figure out my route on the fly”.

Considering me representative of my guild would result in fantastically erroneous data.

I think where Liana is going wrong is in comparing Mythic raiding and M+. Mythic raiding is largely about herding cats into showing up and then doing the dance that you all learn where as M+ is about learning your teams limits and how to work around them.

I wouldn’t hesitate to say that M15 is easier than than raiding but for me at least a large part of that comes from not needing 20 people to play correctly.

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I think this is the source of much disagreement. The greatest challenge in raiding is organization and patience. After that it’s pretty easy. For m+ it’s the other way around. You can get a group together easily, but the challenge is working doggedly to increase your potential.

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Yeah but I look at it like this, M15 can be reasonably easily puged if you take a small amount of care with who you invite. Mythic raidings first couple bosses are similar. Higher keys and harder mythic bosses are much harder to pug and more time consuming to get a team.

They’re both different types of content that largely appeal to different people, with a large group who enjoy both obviously.

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I could not agree more. I feel like you’ve hit the nail on the head. As someone who likes to push high keys. It’s unbelievably disappointing that they’ve reduced an M+15 End of Dungeon Reward below Heroic Raiding Item Level Drop. Considering that the last 2 bosses already give +10 item levels. I just think the player should be rewarded for completing the harder content. I think they should make titles/achievements/mounts to also encourage higher level of M+ like for 20s and 25s. I genuinely think if this datamined change goes through my hype for Shadowlands has completely crashed and genuinely considering whether I should even keep subbing to the game to regularly do M+.

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They are. In fact, the rewards are much better in SL; you can get mythic ilvl loot in your chest from a +14 instead of a +15, and you can get a choice of 3 different pieces rather than being saddled with one item.

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You do know the changes basically tripled your chances of getting a 475 Getikku right?

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And blizzard’s hate train for M+ continues full steam.

At this point I don’t even want to buy the expansion with gold with the way things are going.

I guess I should thank the popularity of “RAID OR DIE LULZ” classic WoW for these latest changes. People doing 6 minute choreographed dancing with add waves win the game again. The rest of us can go find something else to play apparently.

So the activision bean counters wanting us to fish a weekly chest for our drop and maximize MAU numbers win, instead of us getting the items we want from the actual run. I’m so overjoyed for these bean counters, truly.

  • Remove the weekly M+ chest
  • Buff base ilvl drops huge in M+
  • Stop putting raiding on a pedestal while destroying everything else in the game. If people want that so deeply classic WoW is over there -->
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Blizzard is going to lose revenue with this change. M+ is the future no matter how many heroic mode “raiders” that need to hide in a crowd or be carried to do content don’t like M+.

Blizzard is also going to walk this idiotic idea back by 9.2 at the latest.

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This is by far the worst change! I like pushing M+ I make gold boosting M+ I gear my alts using M+. M+ takes 30-40 mins sometimes 20. Raiding takes 1-3 hours for a full clear. Now we only get one item that is lower than heroic gear. Why even do it. Just do your 15 and full clear on heroic and your done for the week. Yes you can get 3 items but doing 10 M14-15s and maybe not getting any gear in those dungeons is noneense. Pretty sure Bizzard is trying to kill their own game.

Also this makes armor stacking even more important now. You thought boosting for RMT was bad this makes it worse. Now people will need to pay gold or RMT for an armor stack to get geared up.

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Blizzard has always put the best gear on weekly lockouts; it’s a subscription game, so Blizzard needs to keep people subscribed. Blizzard could have put M+ on a weekly lockout, but that would have led to other complaints - such as if you got locked out of a +15 Freehold because you’d already done a +5 - so the chest was a good solution. If you don’t like calendar lockouts, you should expect to have to play a nonsubscription game.

That’s extremely unlikely. They buffed the rewards from M+; for the vast majority of people that will result in more M+ runs, not less.

Any halfway decent M+ boosting team was already offering armor stacking.

Gonna be a lot more expensive than 105K gold with only 2 items dropping lol

I disagree Liana, I know 7 people that cancelled subs and looking to cancel preorders currently because of this change. I’m not one of them, but there will be a lot in my estimate.

It doesn’t matter, Blizzard will walk this back. Wait until the critical mass of players find this out. Most players don’t read forums or keep up with changes as much as we all do.