So, I know this isn’t the first time someone has made this request and that a lot of people feel the same way. But I’ve decided to add my voice to the discussion.
I’m trying to push my key. I have no need for anything below a level 8. But here’s what happens- someone isn’t skilled enough and causes our group to wipe several times, leading to a deplete. They had the “proper” gear and rating for the key. However, for whatever reason, they brick it. Or maybe someone just up and disconnects. Nothing anyone can do. There is no way I can control this and yet the ONLY person who is punished is me. It’s my key that gets downgraded, forcing me to then run the SAME dungeon but on a level that gives me neither gear nor rating…
The worst part of key depletion is that, again, the ONLY person who is punished is the owner of the key… No one else in the group has any stake in it whatsoever. All they lose is a little time.
I’ve wracked my brain for any reason (mechanically) that depletion should exist and I cannot think of one.
I’d personally like it if we could downgrade keys by choice (like it is now) but not be downgraded for failing the run. This is just too much and it can be very demoralizing…
Players having access to keys they are not ready for the entire week or season.
Constantly able to repost their key dragging down other unsuspecting pugs.
All it takes is 1 carry to get forever access to top rewards.
Instead of players leaving being the issue you will now have players leaving and players being kicked.
No one gets kicked out of M+, that will change if depletions are removed.
Keys depleting sucks on the individual level, but is systemically needed. Keys scores already get inflated, but it will be so much worse if keys didn’t deplete. Asking for keys to never deplete is only a short-term benefit with long-term consequences and will hurt pugs the most.
Instead you should be asking for keys with limited charges, 2 or 3. This allows the key holder a limited amount of attempts before dropping down, while also restricting all of the “cons” listed.
Even with depleted keys, you still get vault credit, end of dungeon drops, and crests. If you are deadset on demanding the removal of depletion completely, then you should be okay with them also removing all rewards from untimed keys.
Which members of the party are rewarded with an upgraded key for finishing on time?
It will give you a higher key for finishing on time though, right? So it looks like there is still value in running it. Not every reward has to be gear or rating. You are also free to join someone else’s group.
WoW players largely hate the possibility of failure after the first kill. Once they’re in farm mode, they’d prefer it to be Remix-level easy. I do wonder if part of the problem is that affixes don’t add enough variety to each run, so they don’t feel like even a slightly new challenge even with comp changes.
This is a super interesting take. I’m curious if keys would fall apart much faster than they do now. It might also create a lot more keys being run because the keyholders would feel much less risk in running their own key, but on the flip side, the amount of leavers would skyrocket the minute it becomes obvious you won’t time.
Or changing the system, like going from timer only to timer + mob count - deaths=score. Like 100 points for a “3 chest” time, 1 point/% of mobs, -5/15 points per death. IO/Rating would be made to be a % of the score based on key level (like 20% for a 2, 30% for a 3, 100% for a 10, 110% for an 11, etc).
Thing is, they could also make this personal to players, to some extent, like the death count could be how many times the individual player died and only effect their score. This might not work out well for determining degrading the key, unless it is the key holder that falls below the threshold.
Speaking of depletion, with this set up I would make it like:
165-200=+3 key level
130-164=+2 key level
100-129=+1 key level
85-99=no change
70-84= -1 key level
50-69= -2 key level
<50= -3 key level
Keep in mind, if they do make the scoring a bit more personal, that can open the way for a rating system that can be used to queue for M+ that can match you with players of, hopefully, equivalent skill.
The personal aspect was more for those that keep wanting queueable M+. But 2 areas would still be under the control of the group, time and mob count.
Think of it this way, you have 4 people that know what they are doing and are able to time the key with max mob count and no issue, then you have that one that dies every pull, sometimes multiple times if they run back or you Brez them. Should the other 4 members be punished for the trolling or inability of the one? This is why only 1 aspect of the score would be personal, and that would be deaths.
But even in those times, the core issue may be on the individual:
Tank dies? who is to say they did not try zooming through or over pulling when the healer could not handle it.
Healer choosing to not heal someone? who is to say that particular fool is not standing in “fire” and forcing the healer to decide to save them or the tank to try and avoid the tank dying.
In an ideal world, the deaths would be mostly because one is trying to punch above their key level. like a fresh 80 trying to do a +10 where they are 1 shot, or close to it, by even the passive AoE damage some mobs do.
If the tank is intentionally getting other killed, maybe that one did something the tank did not like. Even I admit there are tanks that will troll others, but sometimes others are trolling the tank or being the “nightmare party member”
I try to let things pass, but you can bet that if someone is rude or whatever to me, if I can hurt them without hurting the rest of the group, I AM going to try.
This system is way too convoluted and you know for a fact that someone will just make an addon or weakaura to track the points. People will still leave based on where they perceive the points will be at the end of the run. We saw the exact same thing with Torghast when they changed it so there was a timer along other criterias other than just the death cap.
It is nothing more then a score for time and a score based on how much is cleared. The math is simple aside from how may points for each “time tier”.
Anyone that needs this is likely poor at math, again, it is simple outside the points for the timer: 1%=point, which means a “full clear” (100% mob count)=100 points before timer and deaths are calculated,
As far as timer, personally I was thinking along the lines of:
3 chest=100 points
2 chest=75 points
1 chest=50 points
Just over time(that 10% window)=25 points
Far over time=0 points
Mind you, this could be an argument for personal factoring for deaths, so any leavers could be the ones with a lot of deaths.
I know the system can seem complicated and/or convoluted, but at the same time the timer being the be all, end all for M+ is a bit of a detriment. I’d rather a system that takes mob count and “run safety” (lack of deaths) into account to the point that a 1 chest just means you know the content and can handle it. Even if it was only active for lower keys, it would be at least a step in the right direction.
It doesn’t matter if you think it’s simple or not you have to think about it from the perspective of the average wow player. Is it more convoluted than what we have now? If the answer is yes then it’s not going to go over well.
Which is a lot of people. Regardless, it still won’t change anything with people leaving if they perceive the run as going poorly.
You mean the same “average WoW player” that wants queueable M+? A system like I posted could lead to a match making system that could be used in such.
It is is just perception, maybe M+ would be better without them, if it is obviously going bad? then people should be able to leave without issue.
One argument with perception and going poorly is there are some that would think “going poorly” means less the a perfect run were as actually going poorly would be like over 9 deaths and 75% of the timer gone before second boss.
I’d just love to see what would happen if, instead of time lost per death, it was mob% lost. Under the current system, that could mean the key could not even be completed, under a system like I suggested, it could be with a lower score.
When it comes to the “common WoW player”, there are many in that group I’d like to see knocked down a few pegs.
I still tank and such for these players, but why should I look at ideas from their perspective when they don’t seem to look at anything from any one’s perspective but their own?
The perspective I look at ideas like mine are, of course, my own, Blizzard looking for ideas and other players who might like M+ but see it needs work to appeal to multiple play styles,
One addition to my idea that I thought of, when it comes to leavers, is leavers lose score based on what the score would be if the key was completed at that moment, and the ones that remain either get an incomplete or a core based on the factors in play. So in essence this would mean that those that leave within the first 5 minutes would get smacked hard, and the rest would get an incomplete but if it is over time, the leaver loses less score and those that stayed would get score based on mob count and deaths.
But what does it matter Blizzard is the one that make the final call, I just want a system that rewards speed or completeness for the lower scores but the combination rewards the higher rewards. I’d even take x dungeon at y key level being locked once completed in exchange. Like if I do NW at +10 and complete it, I can’t do another at +10, I could do +9 or lower or +11 or higher, but for a +10 I’d have to look at other dungeons.