Not sure why the devs felt the need to force either Group Loot or Personal Loot on us. It was FINE when we had all options (ML, PL, and GL) available to us. Only benefit of “personal loot” IMO was the chance of more people getting loot in a raid setting. Even then, too many times those people only got an item level upgrade and not an actual upgrade, and were forced to keep the item when someone else would have greatly benefitted because “haha, higher item level! you’re stuck with it now~~”
Master Loot/Group Loot is great for guild raids/dungeons. It’s not great for LFR. I don’t know who thought it was a good idea - especially with all the issue it’s caused in the past.
Easy solution is to put choices back in the game: personal loot, group loot, and master loot.
7 Likes
I disagree. My full pug normals and LFR have shown very different results. I’m seeing people interact with each other and be excited to see loot drop again. Are there instances of it being abused? Of course and I’m sure Blizzard will be using this data to improve on the system(I hope). But happy people don’t go to the forums congratulating a system, angry people do. I wouldn’t fall into echo chamber bias’.
This notion of remove a system or revert a system instead of improving it, is what made us lose a lot of great systems in the past. Give it a chance and look at more viewpoints than those in the same bubble. A systems not bad because you see yourself losing.
8 Likes
We did give it a chance. For a year in Cataclysm. It was so bad that they literally had to invent personal loot to address it.
They addressed none of the core issues with it in a PuG with their “fixes” - all of those fixes were aimed at organized groups.
We don’t need to give it time. We have seen how it works and it doesn’t. Blizzard even outright acknowledged this 10 years ago when they introduced personal loot.
I’m glad you like it, but it’s not working for something I’m very very comfortable saying is the majority in LFR.
My statements are almost entirely about LFR. Even pugs of normal are more organized and civilized than LFR and would handle this system better. You mentioned both. It’s entirely possible that your experience in those normals is skewing your experience with it in LFR, is it not?
I should update my OP and edit it to be about LFR, as that’s strictly what I’m talking about now, and when I’m on my PC if I remember, I will. EDIT: Actually, I think the OP is clear enough I’m mostly concerned about LFR. normal still having slight concern is mentioned but it’s mostly lfr in it. The improvements made it palatable in normal+, though I still do believe the choice should be there.
4 Likes
This is how im looking at it. Personal loot was pretty busted when you would kill a tough boss and 4 people would get an item. Ill take guaranteed drop over a maybe everyday. I would also just choose to let people decide what they want for their personal raid.
2 Likes
Yeah I feel like that’s what I’m seeing from a majority of people (not just on the forums). Give players those “meaningful choices” and allow them to do GL/PL/ML as chosen for a particular scenario.
5 Likes
I totally agree here. I would point out to everyone though that LFR is not a personal raid for anyone involved. There is, for the most part, no high level organization other than what is implemented in the code. For the devs to believe that anything other than code determined forced loot distribution will work better is wishful thinking on their part and has no meaningful chance of success that is better than the current system. For LFR there is no better solution than group loot.
5 Likes
First impressions of group loot in LFR
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It takes too long as a healer to read all the loot tool tips and keep up with the next trash pulls so I’m just hitting need (or greed when I can’t need) on everything and I’ll sort it out later.
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Something is happening where some people are probably just closing the window without making a loot choice and forcing some super long timer to tick down so that it can’t figure out who won. Right up until the next boss got pulled in one case and a dozen people sitting around after the last boss died waiting for a leatherworking pattern to finally be distributed.
Generally an annoying system so far in a group full of strangers, half of whom could care less about the loot or the inconvenience of others.
11 Likes
Ran an LFR earlier today and noticed some things about “Group Loot”, Which I feel needs to be addressed.
For example, A tier piece dropped today in my LFR and I had the option to roll “Need” on it. I clicked “Need”, But my roll never counted. Never appeared in the list of rolls for it. Instead I noticed only ONE or TWO players that clicked “Need” actually had their rolls appear.
I also noticed that when they rolled it was marked as Main-Spec for them. It was def Main-Spec for me as well even though my roll never counted.
There was even one person in my LFR that got a piece of gear and they disenchanted it in front of the raid. Not sure why, But I guess they have their own reasons for doing so.
Personally, I feel Group Loot needs to be removed from the game entirely and Personal Loot should be re-implemented for all Group content. Just my thoughts on this.
15 Likes
I think the choice should exist in organized content. Like, if a guild wants to use Group Loot - they should have that option.
But to force it on everyone is no different than forcing Personal Loot on everyone. It’s bad game design.
That said, Personal Loot should be forced in LFR because it is 25 strangers. You can’t expect 25 strangers to be friendly with one another. Of course people are going to be mad if someone knowingly rolls need on something for transmog vs the computer randomly assigning them loot. The entire step of having to manually press “yes” makes it a toxic system.
Made worse by the fact one person can walk away with 5-6 pieces of loot in one LFR and leave most of the rest of the group with no loot at all, if luck played their hand.
But I’m also at the point of thinking they need to merge Normal and LFR. Have it be if you queue with 10+ people, it flexes like Normal does now, and you do not get strangers with you, effectively creating a hybrid Normal/LFR. But if you queue with 9 or less, you get queued like normal into a group so there’s 25 people. Effectively creating one less raid difficulty, while retaining 4 difficulty “options.”
5 Likes
I personally think this is a good idea for any queued content, but I wouldn’t be surprised if such a fix wasn’t a simple one.
HEre is a good example of why Group Loot does not belong in LFR, from Reddit:
(The same person won two of the same exact tier slot piece, and then when whispered about it, admitted they wanted to disenchant both of them so they were keeping them)
Despite claims that someone can’t win 2 of the same item - it’s been well documented by now that it is indeed happening. (Even if this is fixed, it doesn’t fix the problems with Group Loot in LFR)
And much like I said would happen in my original posts - people are very upfront about wanting to vendor or disenchant the items for profit, even though other players might want them as an upgrade.
The process of selecting “Need” makes this a toxic system - you are specifically pressing “Yes, I want this to take it away from someone who might need it as an upgrade even though I just want it for transmog/selling” - Personal Loot never had that. If you won loot, you won loot. Yes, there was occasionally salty people that an overgeared person won loot, but in just two runs in two weeks, I’ve already encountered more toxicity in my LFR runs over loot than I have the past 4 expansions. Including one in which one tank decided to afk because she didn’t win something she wanted on the first boss, and it took us 15 minutes to convince the group to kick a tank who was trying to hold us hostage.
You couldn’t win multiple pieces from the same boss either. If you wanted something for mog or to DE/Sell - you could simply not loot the boss as well and it would be mailed to you - thus no hate towards you and no one feels sleighted because you won loot despite being overgeared.
Please bring back Personal Loot to LFR.
17 Likes
Hate to be that guy but the reason its group loot is to not reward as much loot causing people to have to play more.
at least this is how it looks.
7 Likes
Group loot allows for less loot waste, not more. TBF.
Here is a good example of why Group Loot does not belong in LFR, from Reddit:
I mean realistically, it’s unfortunate that person got someone who was being toxic. But I’ve seen more good examples than bad, and highlighting a single bad example is a very toxic mentality. A system is not bad just because there’s a few bad in the bunch.
3 Likes
Except by its very nature this is false.
If there’s no hunters in your raid, the boss is still capable of dropping all bows. (Blizzard even went out of their way to clarify this was an intended design)
This was never possible in PL.
PL only dropped loot that people could use. There was no loot waste. If someone won something they didn’t need, they could give it to someone else. (Or, in turn, give it to an enchanter to disenchant and thus create a shard in the economy)
So I’m not sure how you arrived to the conclusion that Group Loot has less loot waste than no loot waste, when by its very nature, it can drop loot no one can even use.
All they needed to do was add a system allowing us to put loot up for roll if we won it and didn’t want it - and relax the trading restrictions. They didn’t need to add this horrible group loot system.
I can quite literally link Blizzard their own blog posts where the devs back in MoP explained why they invented Personal Loot because Group Loot wasn’t working in Dragon Soul LFR. This has fixed none of the problems from that. Literally none.
14 Likes
I’ll tell you how.
LFR drops 376 - 385 loot depending on what boss you kill. Lets say I go in on a 400 ilvl character for whatever reason. In Personal Loot I can get drops I dont need and be toxic and refuse to trade them because im either ignorant or a troll. Wasted Loot.
In group loot, I’m either not going to bother need rolling on an item I don’t need (letting someone else get it) or I’m at least going to have to win the roll against them. Either way this has taken an extra intentional step to be a troll.
Conclusion = GL > PL
3 Likes
I’ve been doing LFR this tier for several weeks now.
It’s official.
I hate group loot!!!
The major issues are:
- It takes 5-10 minutes for rolls on the loot from each boss to complete.
- As a result you have half the raid standing around at the end waiting for the loot from the last boss, doing nothing but complaining about this stupid new loot system and how no one thought the old one was broken.
- There is no time between bosses or at the end to trade gear you don’t need.
- Everyone just hits need/greed on everything so they don’t have to read the tooltip on every item.
- No one I have spoken to wants group loot at all, they want personal loot only for LFR and master looter as an option for guild runs at normal +.
I will never understand how these decisions are arrived at. This just makes no sense to have changed a perfectly good system for this when all anyone ever wanted was an option for master looter on guild runs and PUGs.
20 Likes
My question is, how is the normal/heroic/mythic raider supposed to collect their LFR transmog set with this system? Can I throw my normal tier pieces into the bank and then be able to roll on LFR tier pieces? If not, it seems impossible to collect the transmog set as a normal or higher raider without making a whole extra character of the same class that does not have tier and running LFR with that one instead.
6 Likes
They won’t be able to other than to use catalyst charges on eligable non set items I suppose.
This will drive down LFR participation, lead to longer que times, and make it even harder for everyone to collect transmogs than it already is compared to the previous system. Which is really the only reason to do LFR at all since the gear ilvl is junk to begin with.
This loot system just keeps getting dumber and dumber.
4 Likes
This is why they need to just bring Personal Loot back for LFR, lol. Keep Group Loot for Normal+ until we’ve had enough time to test it properly in an organized setting. But Personal Loot was literally created because Group Loot didn’t work in LFR, and that hasn’t changed. (I can link the blog posts explaining why PL was made if Blizzard doesn’t remember posting them lol)
24 Strangers just don’t coordinate enough and no matter how you look at it, someone making the active choice to press “Need” on an item that’s a massive upgrade for someone else makes that other person feel like crap. As opposed to the person just outright looting the item, because they didn’t make the decision to roll on it, it just happened. (Plus they reserve the right to just not loot the item and have it mailed to them so there’s no hurt feelings if they want to keep it for transmog)
Bring back Personal Loot for LFR, but with one major change - if you trade away a piece of gear, you retain the transmog for it, but only the person the piece of gear dropped for. This will encourage helping others gear up in LFR, while not punishing you by making you lose the transmog you came in to get.
This solves 90% of the issues that create toxicity in LFR.
AFAIK, we’ll be able to get LFR recolors from catalyst by converting M+2-4 items, but have fun farming those. >_>
There’s a chance primal invasion upgraded gear will be convertable, but AFAIK, they weren’t on beta, and I believe they’re high enough ilvl they’d convert to Normal, so not sure what they expect us to do for transmog.
4 Likes
I was able to roll on a tier piece in LFR despite having the heroic version of it. I believe the tier pieces are exempt. Some people were mad and tried to report/kick me, but i join LFR just for the transmog.
2 Likes