Pit of Saron was one of the last dungeons in Wrath. It was designed to be harder. I like the fact that the difficulty transferred into the Timewalking. It’s in no way impossible, but it’s not a 10 minute-pull-everything-fest and requires a little bit of actual thinking and playing.
Eh. We didn’t. Just make sure you’re stopping the hellfire, THAT’S a wipe.
Leveling up and running Normal, yeah you need solid CC here. But in Timewalking you have what you need to mostly brute force it.
Actually it wasn’t that hard as current content (it wasn’t quite the kind of facerolls people are used to today, but there’s a reason Wrath is the xpac that spoiled people enough to rage at Cata). It was just tuned to the game’s first generation of welfare epics and hasn’t been readjusted in hindsight. Now that leveling content and drops scale to you, it’s basically impossible to have the expected gear level before outleveling the queue.
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PoS is not hard. You obey mechanics and don’t face pull there is no problem.
Garr is easy if you HIDE BEHIND THE BOULDER to drop frost stacks instead of tunnelling.
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Time walking is supposed to be easy content for people leveling/gearing. It’s meant to be on par with heroics. It’s not supposed to be something that’s challenging for people doing M+10s.
Pit Of Saron is harder in timewalking than it ever was in WOTLK because of damage scaling. PoS was easy in WOTLK. Halls of Reflection was the dungeon that gave people problems.
Nope. Noooope.
Normal while leveling up, sure. Timewalking Heroic, flat no. You didn’t get away with charging those pulls on the ramp with no CC unless you were hideously overgeared, and you didn’t have access to AOE stuns/interrupts as well as robust kiting options if the tank started to get overwhelmed. Even with the ilvl being set wrong, it’s still much easier than it was.
Everyone was hideously overgeared when this dungeon launched. You had months of the free loot from the trial of the crusader dungeons before this even launched.
Pit Of Saron was very easy in WOTLK. The only dungeon people struggled with was Halls Of Reflection because of the need to LOS the first gauntlet.
How is it so hard for you to accept that the extra damage in this dungeon (which was a dungeon intended for people in raid level gear from the ToTC dungeons) is not balanced in Timewalking where everyone is scaled to a level that is meant to make the entry level heroics relevant?
Everything in PoS just hits much harder than the rest of the WOTLK timewalking dungeons, it’s an outlier because of an oversight and it will be fixed.
It was tuned under the assumption that you were running gear from Trial of the Champion (5-man). If you’re talking about people walking around in Trial of the Crusader (raid) gear, you just proved my point because that was the only way to overgear it on launch. Of course those people will be able to rush the trash packs.
It is set to the wrong ilvl, yes. It was also designed for much spikier healing than we have now. I’m saying that despite those things, what we got in TW is still easier than it was on account of vastly more powerful movesets. When you can have three different people in the party stun the whole pack for 3-4 seconds each, and AOE slow then leap away to kite for a while at a moment’s notice, yeah that’s pretty damn powerful.
Yes, that is what I said. And that gear was 2 full raid tiers higher ilvl than the gear that the release dungeons were tuned around. Trial of the Champion dungeon gear was the same ilvl as Ulduar raid gear, whereas the original heroics were tuned around leveling blues.
You said everyone was overgeared for Pit of Saron when it launched. Unless you were raiding Crusader, that was literally impossible. Until people were overgeared, they weren’t able to face-smash their way through Heroic PoS.
I remember it. It wasn’t exactly a meat grinder, but we had to use CC on those pulls. We didn’t now, despite mistuned ilvl and a complete shift in healing pace. Ergo, easier. We have a much wider and more powerful array of live control, mobility, and defensives than we ever did back then.
Yes, people were overgeared when it when it launched. Because as you can see now from Timwalking, the dungeon could be completed in the equivalent of level 80 quest gear, but most people doing the dungeon were in the equivalent of Ulduar raid gear.
But doing it in level 80 quest gear would have been much more diffficult, as we can now see from timewalking.
Mob abilities hit very hard in there compared to release WOTLK heroics. The final boss will one shot a tank in timewalking if they don’t kite him properly. That didn’t happen when the dungeon first launched. The scaling is off.
The first bosses in PoS were faceroll when the dungeon launched. The only diffficult parts were the skeletons on the hill. That is simply not the case in the timewalking dungeon, you are required to do first boss mechanics flawlessly or wipe. People are wiping on the cave gauntlet which never happened in WOTLK.
Scaling is off with this dungeon, there’s not really any simpler way to explain it. Of course you know this already, you are just of the belief that people should wipe in Timewalking so you oppose fixing even obvious scaling issues.
…You’re saying people back in 2010 must have been overgeared, because people today are capable of clearing content at an accidental handicap by leveraging a wide array of obscenely powerful abilities that did not exist in 2010.
Do I think they actually tuned TW to account for that? God no. Suffice to say this expansion’s pretty much destroyed my faith in Blizz’s testing in general, or at least their desire to fix anything less than catastrophic stability issues found before release. It was 100% an oversight, and they should adjust it like they did for End Time and Magister’s. My objection was that you said it was harder in this event than when it was current – which is not true. Our skillbooks are much stronger than the numeric disadvantage.
Had you said Normal while leveling, that would be a whole different animal. At that point talents and skillbooks haven’t filled out yet, and a significant amount of class power rests in azerite right now. But worse, the discrepancy between Heroic epic tuning and TW’s botched blue ilvl is much smaller than between Normal epic tuning and quest greens. The gap is even wider and you don’t have the class tools to make up for it.
By the way, you still don’t have to do boss mechanics perfectly. Both my characters’ Garfrost kills were hilarious messes involving multiple battle rezzes (with far more classes able to do THAT now too). The usual wipe wasn’t failing to use boulders, but dying before we ever saw one at all because DPS burned him so fast that he transitioned before throwing the first one (something that also wasn’t possible before until people were overgeared). People got Poison Nova’d and Ick still went down without issue. Even if tanks fail to use their far more powerful modern mobility tools on the last boss, he doesn’t oneshot them; mine got clipped at the tail end of the buff – I wouldn’t have been able to heal him through the whole thing, probably not even for a second hit, but he stayed up.
And as for this, yes and no. I do remember people wiping to that back in the day, for one. But I did find we weren’t able to go all the way to the halfway point in one pull like I remember. The usual fracture point in stat squished content has been unadjusted debuffs, and I didn’t remember and wasn’t watching for any. We ended up just going slowly and dancing around icicles without trouble. If anything, today’s red-swirly boss mechanics have given the general population quite a bit of practice with that much.
It is harder though. In WOTLK every time i cast holy light it would heal the target to full health. Sure we didn’t have AOE stuns or as many interrupts but healing and tank mitigation were both much stronger then. As a paladin in TotC gear I blocked basically all of the damage.
We can at least agree that their testing of timewalking has been abysmal in BFA.
Yeah, and he was expected to need it pretty darn often. They were starting to pick up decent mitigation options, but they still mostly relied on spiky avoidance and the transition didn’t fully happen until Cata. Now even the least viable tanks have active mitigation on about the same level as their 30-60s cooldowns back then, minimum two defensives beyond that, significant self-healing, several get some manner of panic HP. All except bears can bug out of basically any circumstances at a moment’s notice to give us time to catch up, and most will leave an AOE snare behind.
And that’s before you even get into what the rest of the party is slinging around. If I see the tank fly backward, I have two different ways to extend his breather even longer – not just long enough to top him off and overload his hots, but usually long enough for at least one mob to go down behind him. If I’m on my warlock and see him getting chunked, down goes the Shadowfury and he’s close to full by the time it wears off. Almost every class in the game can help keep the tank alive now.
It’s great that you can bring advanced group strategies to complete what is supposed to be the equivalent of a heroic dungeon, you are obviously better than most players, but it shouldn’t be required to kite or coordinate stuns in this level of content.
Why not? Because it’s a pug? Because pug heroics in entry level gear shouldn’t require a touch of coordination or for people do mechanics? I seem to recall a couple mob packs in BFA heroics that required stuns/interrupts when we could first get into heroics or the group was pretty much going to wipe. Was that overtunned? Or is it ok because now we overgear it to the point that it’s irrelevant?
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Because it’s entry level content with no ilvl requirement which is being done not only by fresh 120s but also by people leveling their first ever character.
But it’s not entry level content, as you have to be a minimum level 81 to queue for it. And even if someone was leveling a character through it, it shouldn’t be expected that they learn some of the mechanics? Or should only be reserved by max level dungeons?
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If putting my mouse in the general area of the mob pack and hitting my 4 key when things look dangerous is seriously considered an advanced strategy these days, it’s no wonder people are having so much trouble. Even back when Wrath was starting to spoil people, we would’ve called that just bothering to read and equip your spellbook.
If that’s all you’re doing then you’re not contributing anything. But we both know it’s not. But for whatever you reason you like to pretend that even leveling pugs have some sort of stun rotation addon that stops them all using their stun at the same time.
I don’t, and I’ve overlapped it plenty of times. It happens. Coordinating a long string of them is advanced strategy. Using it at any opportune time isn’t.
I’m a mediocre warlock at best. I’m not exactly setting a high bar here.