Soul engines exist in this setting. It’s not the best set of opportunities though.
Natives also struck first in real life for the vast majority of the continent lmao
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Wiping out shamanism and all the traditions that come with it for Light worship is in fact destroying your culture and a Deus Vult esque metaphor.
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I feel like you keep ignoring the fact( that as many people have brought up) that yes, while AU Grom did maintain a leadership position within the AU Mag’har (which is essentially the unified Clans of Draenor) … we only know of two other leaders before Geya’Rah. Her parents. AU Durotan, and AU Draka. Both are Frostwolves. The prior was apparently murdered by the Lightbound. The latter (last we heard) is leading the last AU Mag’har Garrison in Nagrand. So … I’m waiting to see your justification for them being targeted too? Or any Draenor race not associated with the Iron Horde for that matter? The Saberon? The Ogres? Ogron? Gronn? Botani? Goren? Arrakoa (which as shadow worshippers I doubt they’d were left untouched)?
And as a note, as far as we know there was no real attempt to eradicate the Draenei by the Iron Horde on AU Draenor. Both because of the motivation given to AU Grom to press him into even attacking them in Hellscream (he didn’t see the need initially), and just functionally. The goal was to keep them suppressed and out of the way of the invasion of Azeroth. As Garrosh had convinced Grom that they would interfere eventually. It also should be noted that the only time we see the Iron Horde even using slaves is in the WoD intro, and there were just as many Orcish ones there as Draenei. The Iron Horde was a monstrous entity, but with the information we do have … people tend to conflate it a little too much with the MU Old Horde.
They have PLENTY of crimes of their own, no need to blur the lines between both groups.
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I propose we do absolutely nothing about the cultural genocide of Alternate Draenor until the vast majority of Orcs have been Lightforged, making Lightforged dominance a fait accompli that everyone will then need to accept is the True Culture of the People of Draenor. Then when the Orcs fight back we can accuse the Orcs of being the cultural genociders.
Perhaps he should just try harder at peace? Clearly the Yaungol and Mantid are just misunderstood!
Im mostly saying this because from the Alliance POV in mop it felt very hypocritical for him to be saying that. Especially coming out of everything that happened in Cataclysm.
1 Like
Were the natives racist? Were they as technologically advanced as the colonials?
Given that race didn’t exist as a sociopolitical construct until WELL after the European kingdoms landed upon America (continent), this question is not only incoherent, but also stupid.
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My eyes glaze over at this talk of cultural genocide. We have no idea what Yrel’s crusade actually requires of its converts beyond faith in the Light and service to the Naaru. Any other impact on orcish culture is speculation.
Otherwise, what the Lightbound are doing to the Mag’har is no different to what the Mag’har have done to different ogre tribes: the subjugation of a lesser state in service to a greater one.
I am sure when this plot thread is inevitably brought to the fore we will learn more about the root of this conflict and what it’s outcome actually entailed for the defeated orcs, but until then, it’s all speculative.
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Durotan fell in battle against the “Lightbound” under unspecified circumstances. I’ll wait for more info on that rather than jump to conclusions.
Yrel’s group are right about how dangerous AU Draenor is; the Ogres were like the Iron Horde with their Gorian Empire, the Saberon have a xenophobic cannibalistic hunter-gatherer culture, the Goren are animals so don’t have a culture and there’s no evidence the “Lightbound” targeted them specifically, it was the post Iron-Horde Mag’har who enslaved or wiped out the Gronn so don’t try to pin that on the “Lightbound” and the Botani had parasitic reproduction (including people puppet spores) like the xenomorphs and hostility to everyone who wasn’t a fellow Botani. I think those are good reasons for some “Lux Vult!”
Also, you didn’t answer my question about the comparison of in-universe so-called cultural genocide (Mag’har/Lightbound) vs actual cultural genocide (Pandaren/Mogu Empire)
I think you’re ignoring that AU Grom got of scot-free for his war crimes until the final face-to-face with Yrel. The crimes of the Iron Horde need to be remembered because many of the “Lightbound” include their past victims… something I think you’re sweeping under the rug because you like this “Light bad” story arc.
Eitrigg says: It is time you explained who these Lightbound are, overlord.
Overlord Geya’rah says: I suppose you have earned that much.
Overlord Geya’rah says: After Archimonde’s fall, the orcs and draenei worked together to drive the Legion from Draenor. Those were good years.
Overlord Geya’rah says: But without demons to fight, the draenei became fixated on their precious Light.
Overlord Geya’rah says: Their naaru masters compelled them to spread their influence among the orcs. A few converted willingly. Others had the Light forced upon them.
Overlord Geya’rah says: Some orcs even sided with the draenei against their own kin… even the warchief’s own son was lost! We call these traitors Lightbound.
Overlord Geya’rah says: I will not stand by while the High Exarch crusades against Mag’har freedom! The tyranny of the Light must be ended!
Eitrigg says: We will fight with you, overlord!
Exarch Orelis says: Cease this pointless defiance, Mag’har! Stand down and welcome the Light!
Overlord Geya’rah says: Retreat while you still can! You will not force your doctrines upon us, draenei!
Exarch Orelis says: The High Exarch orders you to submit… or face judgment!
Eitrigg says: For Draenor! For the Mag’har!
Next question
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Those cherry-picked quotes from potentially unreliable characters don’t prove anything about cultural impact.
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It’s literally the quest text and the actual perspective of the leader of the survivors.
Degenerate as hell.
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What makes you think she’s unbiased? For one, Geya’rah never mentioned the Iron Horde.
Here’s another Geya’rah quote;
Geya’rah: “There are draenei on this world? <Geya’rah narrows her eyes.> Not for long.”
She wants to wipe out an entire race because of what some of it’s members did to her; she has no moral high ground to stand on, at best she’s as bad as you say Yrel’s group is and seems in denial of the Iron Horde.
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I appreciate Baal going out of his way to provide evidence for my claim that we know nothing about what conversion entails beyond faith in the Light and service to the naaru. Saves me having to scroll through wowpedia.
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Yeah … you’re not really helping your case here. You’re essential premise is “Its not cultural genocide if I can think of an excuse”. And yes, Draenor was a remarkably harsh environment, that fostered harsh cultures. Doesn’t really give the Dreanei the right to move in an civilize the savages … no matter how much you are a fan of Yrel. Nor do they have the right to expand beyond a “Unified by the Light” Draenor to bring “order to many worlds”. Which is her intent. Convert or Die … to once Allies and Enemies alike?
Also, moving goal posts. You justified Yrel’s actions through the Iron Horde, then when I brought up that she’s targetting far beyond that … you made up a bunch of rather shallow reasons why its OK for all the “Not Ex-Iron Horde” groups not to count. Noticed you also ignored the Arrakoa (which absolutely would be a target in a Unified in Light crusade) … and the Orcs not apart of the Iron Horde (notably Durotan and Draka, who were/are both leaders of the Mag’har). Or Geya’rah for that matter.
Finally, need I remind you that the Eradar as a species now (thanks to the AU) has been shown to be obscenely prone to committing to World Ending crusades if Velen isn’t there to guide them. Not sure they have any room to judge. Especially since their behavior can’t be explained by the brutal environment they developed in; being the Trust-Fund kids of Naaru living in a given eternal technological paradise.
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Am I misremembering? I thought the whole lightbound thing and forcing the light on victims was an actual magical brainwashing to their cause.
Edit: Wait, there it is. A few converted willingly. Others had the Light forced upon them.
No point in mentioning the forced aspect unless it was a form of brainwashing.
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My premise is that it’s not genocide. You failed to prove that it is genocide, especially since I gave an example of actual in-universe cultural genocide with the Pandaren and Mogu… there’s major differences between what the Mogu did and the “Lightbound” are doing.
I forgot the Arakkoa, but we don’t know what happened to them after WoD since they didn’t show up in that scenario on either side, so we can’t assume anything about them either way… including you assuming the worst and trying to lay non-existent crimes against the Arakkoa at the Lightbound’s feet/hooves.
Several among the Mag’har are former Iron Horde members including Grom himself, the Iron Horde’s former leader. Between Grom and Yrel, I was rooting for Yrel in that final showdown; he needed to answer for his crimes and Yrel is a victim of his past crimes, so that’d be some poetic justice.
If the Eredar as a species being prone to “world ending crusades” means they’re in no position to judge, that also disqualifies the Orcs from being in any position to judge… moreso because they keep slipping into violent ways without outside influence. The Draenei have advanced technology, but the Orcs got a tech boost too and had greater numbers in the Iron Horde so that doesn’t count for much.
You made some points, but I’ll acknowledge where I went wrong when you acknowledge where you went wrong (eg; blaming the Lightbound for the Primals when the Mag’har did that and citing the Gronn even though they’re animals so don’t have a culture and weren’t a target).
Gronn do have limited sentience, as the precursors of Ogron and Ogres. Or do you not remember Gruul? And yes, I get that you are fixated on Yrel being a victim and you are upset that AU Grom was not punished (which we don’t know, all we know is he was within a Leadership position of the AU Mag’har 30 years later). However, you’re argument is “Yeah, they are eradicating their faiths and cultural ways of life; but its not cultural genocide because … they get to keep their languages? For now (it tends to take a generation or two to finally get rid of that sort of thing). And their cultures were vial anyway”.
You do get that the entire premise of the Lightbound’s own Dogma is cultural hegemony and unity right? To bring all of Draenor (and beyond) into a single vision of the Light. One would assume that that “unity” would extend beyond faith, especially when the goal is a Crusade that extends beyond that single world. As diversity in LANGUAGE can create variance in such a vision and message; especially across a multi-race force. But … I highly doubt that this will resonate with you.
I was talking about the Goren, not the Gronn, but it’s easy get the two confused. Yrel being a victim is only part of the picture, and no one mentions Grom being punished in any way - but as a show of good faith, I’ll concede the possibility Grom got punishment (though I think Grom deserved execution or a life-long punishment given the magnitude of his crimes and the lack of remorse he’s shown).
You provide no evidence that their cultural ways of life are being eradicated, and you make a baseless assumption that they’ll lose their language. It’s not like multilingual societies have ever existed or still exist today… OH WAIT! Also, I said more than culture. For example, how is the Xenomorph-like reproduction of the Botani a cultural thing?
They want everybody to serve the Light, that doesn’t mean they want everybody to act, work and dress the same like the Borg would. You make and treat unproven assumptions and theories as fact. And these don’t match up with Turalyon, so villain-batting him just because you’d like to see that doesn’t make sense.