PLEASE DO NOT NERF MC AND BWL
On 1.12 data MC and BWL WILL BE SO NERFED INTO THE GROUND.
Please please please, let us have the difficulty curve with no nerfed bosses that barely summon adds like razorgore. Sure the trash was boring but hey that was the game and it really helps groups learn to work together and act as a unit for the next raids. Getting people to work as a team is seriously difficult and takes at least a month in a real world context. Please tune it to have that challenge of getting your first epic while decked out in blues and a couple of greens if youre unlucky and taking a few weeks to get the bugger down.
Technically you can call it "no changes" because there are intended time to kill / next phase that are actually part of the intended designs of those bosses based on the appropriate class designs and itemization of gear.
Point being, re-tuning raids to play authentically is technically no-changes because you're trying to preserve the original vanilla wow raid experience as humanly close as possible.
Point being, re-tuning raids to play authentically is technically no-changes because you're trying to preserve the original vanilla wow raid experience as humanly close as possible.
lol.. as if raiding in vanilla was EVER hard..
11/06/2018 02:07 AMPosted by Arannyelol.. as if raiding in vanilla was EVER hard..
Much harder than it is now on 1.12. And that's saying something. Like you said. It was never "hard" technically.
11/06/2018 02:07 AMPosted by Arannyelol.. as if raiding in vanilla was EVER hard..
You had Nax on farm like the .01% of players did? Ohh. Nevermind you didn't. Imagine that, it was so easy less than 1% got through it.
Classic wow raids will be cleared fairly quickly imo, when you and all your alts are fully geared, then what ?
I will raid , but only as a means to gear for pvp, provided that old epic AV is brought back.
I will raid , but only as a means to gear for pvp, provided that old epic AV is brought back.
11/06/2018 01:29 AMPosted by HärländTechnically you can call it "no changes" because there are intended time to kill / next phase that are actually part of the intended designs of those bosses based on the appropriate class designs and itemization of gear.
Point being, re-tuning raids to play authentically is technically no-changes because you're trying to preserve the original vanilla wow raid experience as humanly close as possible.
You can't cherry pick what's a change and what's not. There is a valid argument for retuning, but you need to accept that retuning IS a change to the game.
Ragnaros and Onyxia had exactly 1099k health, and if they have more than that, a change has occurred.
11/06/2018 05:46 AMPosted by Bigsly1DD12311/06/2018 02:07 AMPosted by Arannyelol.. as if raiding in vanilla was EVER hard..
You had Nax on farm like the .01% of players did? Ohh. Nevermind you didn't. Imagine that, it was so easy less than 1% got through it.
Good thing players aren't the same uninformed bunch they were when the internet was still young 12 years ago
The difficulty of vanilla is tied to guilds. Running a guild is one of the hardest things you can ever do in vanilla. Organizing, maintaining, and managing 40+ people is a lot harder than anyone would think. Especially in the context of maintaining a life outside of the game. There is a reason psychologists studied the game when it first came out. It was one of the largest, most popular social experiments in virtual history. The demands of the game mimic the demands and choices you have to make IRL. And you the player, must choose what's more important constantly. Only those that consistently chose the game above all others got the "farthest" and got to see the endgame.
This bat swung when they decided on 1.12 talents, threat, and itemization to start with.
They nailed it out of the park.
They nailed it out of the park.
1.12 itemization provided significant boosts to multiple classes' effectiveness in the game and ability to function. Some argue that the DM items provide too much of a boost - but I find that to be easily dismissed. The real issue is that a lot of gear was changed to provide more relevant stats, like spell damage or healing.
Adjusting the numbers on raid bosses is probably the best way to adjust this. The mechanics don't need to change, and the hardcore folk will nevertheless clear MC in a week or two, sure - but for the average joe schmoe, that edge of challenge still being there is important.
I would honestly argue this not only for the endgame raids, but also for the endgame instances. A bit more health, a bit more damage, so on.
Adjusting the numbers on raid bosses is probably the best way to adjust this. The mechanics don't need to change, and the hardcore folk will nevertheless clear MC in a week or two, sure - but for the average joe schmoe, that edge of challenge still being there is important.
I would honestly argue this not only for the endgame raids, but also for the endgame instances. A bit more health, a bit more damage, so on.
11/06/2018 05:46 AMPosted by Bigsly1DD12311/06/2018 02:07 AMPosted by Arannyelol.. as if raiding in vanilla was EVER hard..
You had Nax on farm like the .01% of players did? Ohh. Nevermind you didn't. Imagine that, it was so easy less than 1% got through it.
Hardest part of Classic raiding was getting 40 people to show up. the mechanics were never hard. If you got 3-4 mechanics per boss, you were lucky. The GRIND was hard. Getting you epic ground mount was hard. Lvling was hard. Raiding was not.
The only hard part there ever was about MC was getting 40 people to work together
But given the circumstances, we won't actually need 40 people to clear MC, will we. 25 is likely more than enough.
Classic will not be 100% Vanilla. They intend to get as close to 100% as they can. Thus tuning bosses is an option to get closer to that 100%. This adjustment would emulate the sense of actual difficulty and not "expected" difficulty. You expect that Molten Core will end up being tough because of 1.12 balance, 16 debuff slot, and so on being accounted for. The fact is even if the content is retuned appropriately. Molten Core is still gonna be pretty easy. You will only see any real difficulty starting with Chromaggus and then AQ onwards.
In any case, I would still like to see the content retuned to account for these.
In any case, I would still like to see the content retuned to account for these.
11/06/2018 05:55 AMPosted by Lagspike11/06/2018 01:29 AMPosted by HärländTechnically you can call it "no changes" because there are intended time to kill / next phase that are actually part of the intended designs of those bosses based on the appropriate class designs and itemization of gear.
Point being, re-tuning raids to play authentically is technically no-changes because you're trying to preserve the original vanilla wow raid experience as humanly close as possible.
You can't cherry pick what's a change and what's not. There is a valid argument for retuning, but you need to accept that retuning IS a change to the game.
Ragnaros and Onyxia had exactly 1099k health, and if they have more than that, a change has occurred.
Do you know how many time bosses got nerfed in Vanilla both indirectly and directly? It's actually a surprisingly high number.
The "numerical" figures of a bosses health and damage output are actually kinda meaningless; the only thing that matters is making sure the fight takes roughly the correct time from phase to phase.
I say roughly, because different raid comps are different and complete different components at different rates. What's important is that the average is close to the original launch figures for the content.
Furthermore, reverting 100% of the threat management kits back to pre-naxx is very important for any PVE content that shipped before naxx; simply because post 1.11 threat management didn't really mean a whole lot any more.
What's important is the authenticity of the content in how it plays; not some arbitrary numbers that changed 17 times over 26 months.
If you can get the boss fights to play authentically as the shipped in their early days of WoW, then you succeed in "no changes", but starting with 1.12 characters and bosses is a massive change from an authentic vanilla experience.
recreating the original launch is not whats important
1.1 or whatever was not the most fun patch by a long shot
1.1 or whatever was not the most fun patch by a long shot
I completely agree with this. Like threat is still a thing even in 1.12, but there was definitely significant changes to threat with 1.12.11/06/2018 07:45 AMPosted by HärländFurthermore, reverting 100% of the threat management kits back to pre-naxx is very important for any PVE content that shipped before naxx; simply because post 1.11 threat management didn't really mean a whole lot any more.
11/06/2018 07:45 AMPosted by Härländ11/06/2018 05:55 AMPosted by Lagspike...
You can't cherry pick what's a change and what's not. There is a valid argument for retuning, but you need to accept that retuning IS a change to the game.
Ragnaros and Onyxia had exactly 1099k health, and if they have more than that, a change has occurred.
Do you know how many time bosses got nerfed in Vanilla both indirectly and directly? It's actually a surprisingly high number.
The "numerical" figures of a bosses health and damage output are actually kinda meaningless; the only thing that matters is making sure the fight takes roughly the correct time from phase to phase.
I say roughly, because different raid comps are different and complete different components at different rates. What's important is that the average is close to the original launch figures for the content.
Furthermore, reverting 100% of the threat management kits back to pre-naxx is very important for any PVE content that shipped before naxx; simply because post 1.11 threat management didn't really mean a whole lot any more.
What's important is the authenticity of the content in how it plays; not some arbitrary numbers that changed 17 times over 26 months.
If you can get the boss fights to play authentically as the shipped in their early days of WoW, then you succeed in "no changes", but starting with 1.12 characters and bosses is a massive change from an authentic vanilla experience.
There are really 2 camps now for "no changes". One is the 1.12 exact number camp i.e. private servers. And the other is the camp which wants the original experience itself, which means you need take into the fact that Vanilla was an organic game.
In terms of simplicity, modifying threat might be the single most effective change when it comes to a re-tune. Rather than going nuts and modifying all the boss numbers. Yeah, it may not bring back resource management and things will stay pew pew, but it's better than nothing.