Idk about ya’ll, but personally I have started flagging any posts I see with the words ‘‘Nochanges’’ as spam, because this is classic, not private servers which are generally set at a certain patch. Hopefully some of this spam gets removed and they get forum banned because if blizz caters to the vocal majority of these kind of players then classic will die and we’ll never get to play the better versions of the game.
From Blizzard’s Wow Classic Home Page:
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/wowclassic
World of Warcraft Classic is a faithful recreation of the original World of Warcraft.
This is what Wow Classic is. It wasn’t meant to be added or improved by player’s suggestions.
We are getting the 1.12 rewards. The old 58 sets were removed in 1.11. That is to say, the items still existed if you had already purchased them, but were no longer available for purchase.
Making BOTH sets available for sale IS A CHANGE.
In one of the only other instances where an early version of an item got replaced with a different reward in a later patch, not re-itemized, Classic uses the earlier item.
If that’s actually how you feel, then you should be for removing the 1.11 versions and using the pre-1.11 versions, since having both and having only 1.11 versions are both changes.
Classic for the most part has been using 1.12 item ID data, quest ID data and mechanics content, but using item ID availability based on phases/patches. Prior to the statement on PvP gear, they even said that was their intent, that items would not find their way into the game early, and item availability would be based on patch, even if itemization for a given ID was based on 1.12. They made an exception/change for 60 pvp gear.
lol ppl like you are F***ing drones
Blizzard decided that 1.12 is the most “complete” version of vanilla, where they had finished the most work on the game, including itemization.
They don’t have any intention to recreate the old imbalances, terrible itemization, etc, that they already fixed in vanilla. For example, it’d be accurate to fall through the ground randomly for the first few phases, but I’m not exactly going to ask Blizzard to recreate that.
I’m perfectly content with Blizzard using the last patch of the game as the reference point for data, and simply gating content similar to how it was gated in vanilla.
Really, the thing I find most annoying is their inconsistency in applying this thinking. Loot tables (or some quest rewards, as you have noted as an example) sometimes use the earlier versions, and other times use later versions.
I don’t really care if they choose to use 1.12 data, as long as they apply it consistently. What I would be more in favor of is simply changing that quest reward to be the 1.12 reward.
Not really. The level 60 versions of the blue PvP sets are the 1.12 versions. It was not a new bit of content, it was a changed one. They simply had to make it a new item ID because some pre-60 characters were wearing the blue PvP set, and having it suddenly change to be level 60 would make sub-60s were wearing 60 gear.
For all intents and purposes, the level 60 blue PvP sets are just the 1.12 version of the level 58 sets from before. This is consistent with Blizzard’s planned implementation.
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Loot tables are supposed to be done patch by patch according to Blizzard. It’s also a fact that pre-1.11 armor was around for longer than post-1.12 armor. It wasn’t changed due to being a work in progress like unarmored mounts and talent trees. It wasn’t something rare or that had to be rushed for like unarmored mounts, which were the given reasons for not including them. It was changed purely to deal with Naxx power creep, and Naxx power creep went further than normal because Blizzard anticipating resetting all progress in TBC, something that may not happen to classic servers.
Blizzard was very explicit in not allowing item IDs from later patches in early, except when they made the exception for PvP armor, and even then, they never fully clarified if they were only talking about the epic armor, despite people asking and not getting answers. Wowhead even mentions that it was not known for sure, and their PvP guide used to link the 58 version.
The “inconsistency” with quest rewards has to do with the fact that quest data for a given quest ID is from 1.12. Quest ID and item ID availability tables are supposed to be done by patch. If you take [Speedy Racer Goggles], then the quest data for the quest ID changed to remove the item. This is different from a quest where the reward is replaced, and not removed, which is a closer parallel to the PvP armor. The earlier ID is used in early phases to allow getting the reward, then a new quest ID is created in a later patch so you can do the quest again even if you already have the previous reward and get the upgraded replacement.
All item IDs are updated to 1.12 versions, but the “inconsistency” is the difference between removal and replacement.
Also iirc, Blizzard said they updated the epic gear because they didn’t think it was reasonable for people to have to earn those ranks again.
Ehhh, not quite.
You might want to go back and read what they said.
Irrelevant. They’re using 1.12 as their reference, not “which was the case longest.”
Okay? But it was changed in vanilla, and Blizzard is using the 1.12 version of items. That includes the blue PvP sets.
No, you don’t seem to understand.
There are hundreds, if not thousands, of items that have changed throughout the history of vanilla, currently using their 1.12 versions in Classic.
The blue PvP sets are in the exact same situation. The 1.11 versions replaced the 1.4 versions in the vendors. It was not a situation where new items were added that you could get in addition to the old pieces, they replaced them. It’s not like when a new raid tier launches and you can still run Molten Core. These weren’t extra items being added, they were replacing the old ones.
The only way you could have both is if you had the old sets to begin with, but the old sets were no longer available because they were replaced by the newer ones.
I think maybe you should.
Developers have scoured through vendor lists and treasure tables for items that were added in patches, and then attached them to the staged content unlock plan. This means that if a new item was originally added to a dungeon boss’s loot table with Ahn’Qiraj, you shouldn’t expect it to appear in WoW Classic until Phase 5, which is the phase that contains Ahn’Qiraj content.
Here’s an example of progressive itemization. The Tier 2 warrior Helm of Wrath originally had Spirit and Agility on it, as well as critical strike chance. In Patch 1.5.0, the helm’s stat budget was changed to Stamina, Strength, and Defense, along with elemental resistances. Then in Patch 1.7.0, the amount of Defense on the helm was reduced. In Patch 1.8.0, the 5-piece set bonus that included the helm was fixed to work with Whirlwind, and in 1.9.0, it got a better look with an art update.
WoW Classic will only include that last version of the item, as it existed in our reference version: 1.12.
When it says “that last version” it’s clearly talking about the new stat distribution for a given item ID.
And it existed in 1.12. They’re doing a lot of things not 1.12 style, like
HK DRs. It’s merely the reference, it’s not dogmatically a 1.12 clone.
They aren’t though when it comes to other rewards that were replaced. They specifically differentiate between new items that are added versus modifying existing items. Modifying existing items is not the same as replacing them with other items.
Of course, this raises the question “why?”. Why differentiate between adding new items along the way and making modifications to existing items?
The level 60 armor is not making a modification to an existing item. That’s why you can have both items. It’s really as simple as that. It’s replacing an existing item in the reward structure. The example is clearly talking about a single item ID going through various iterations.
No, you don’t seem to understand. The items weren’t changed. What you are talking about is the stats being changed for a given item ID. This is the topic that the Blizzard itemization post explicitly covered. In the other cases where the reward was replaced by a different item ID, it is the earlier item ID that is currently available. If you believe your statement to be factual, you should be able to give tens of examples. It’s not a 1.12 version of an item ID. It’s the item ID that was available in 1.12.
Currently in Classic, other than PvP armor, it is set up so that you can’t get the item ID of an item introduced later, even if the item is replaced with a different reward later. I gave a concrete example. You claim there are thousands of identical cases.
Again, there is a distinction between updating the values for a given item ID, where it is impossible to ever obtain or own the old version. If you owned old T2, you could not keep the placeholder graphics. These examples come directly from the Blizzard itemization post.
In addition
When new items are added to loot tables, you’re generally seeing a deliberate effort to provide catch-up gear and/or to provide new goals for players who had exhausted an existing reward structure. For example, in original WoW, items were added to give players a way to quickly prepare for Ahn’Qiraj without having to spend months in Molten Core and Blackwing Lair.
It’s quite clear the PvP armor update was to “provide catch-up gear and/or to provide new goals” or in general deal with power creep. Again, iirc, they made the epic set an exception because they realized how ridiculous the grind was at that point, and how few people would be affected.
Again, please provide examples where an item ID was effectively replaced with a different item ID, and not just an example where an item ID’s values were simply updated, instead of just going nuh-uh.
Uhh… hello?
Your argument ends with that line.
The 60 versions of the blue PvP sets are the last version of the item. They are for all intents and purposes, the same items. I know you want to argue they’re somehow different because they have different item IDs, but they require the same rank, replace the old items, and are sold by the same vendors.
The ONLY reason they didn’t just update the item is because they were updating the level requirement of the item, as well. If they just modified the existing item, sub level 60s could be wearing level 60 gear.
Did you even read the Blizzard post? It mentioned several iterations of the same item ID, [Helm of Wrath], and it said Classic would only include the 1.12 version of that item as repeatedly going through various iterations of stat changes to that item.
The 60 armor are different IDs with different names, and different items of which you can own both, unlike the example that was used. They’re not the same items, nor for all intents and purposes the same items. It’s also not how the other case of replaced rewards has been implemented in Classic. You do realize that they could have attributed any arbitrary ilvl to a lvl 58 req item if that’s what they intended to do? The 1.11 patch notes quite rightly say that the new armor has been added, the same word used in the Classic itemization post.
One is modifying an item. The other is effectively replacing an item. If they wanted to give a lvl 58 requirement item an ilvl of 71 they could have. They didn’t.
You could only own both if you got the old versions before the new ones came out.
Blizzard is using the 1.12 rewards and itemization. That means the rewards from 1.4 aren’t available. It’s a very simple concept.
The 60 versions replaced the 58 versions. It’s not new, additional content being unlocked. In the case of whatever quest rewards you mentioned using the earlier versions, those should be fixed to provide what they did in 1.12 for consistency.
This is factually false and not how Classic is currently implemented, but somehow it is inconvenient for you and can be handwaved away.
The patch notes for 1.11 explicitly say they were added, and the itemization post talks about items added for catch-up purposes, which the 1.11 set clearly was.
Blizzard originally made the choice for the epic items to be modified to grandfather those items in. They made the choice to put in the 60 armor in Classic not because it is fully consistent with their design philosophy, but because they obviously want the blue armor strength to be consistent with the epic armor strength, even if it trivializes current content.
The problem is reward replacement, that is the combination of removal of one item and the addition of another, happened rarely and makes their design goals contradictory. Even the massive ilvl buff (not merely stat redistribution or fixes) to the epic set means compromises had to be made to value one design philosophy over another, but in that case, technical limitations made it easier to implement 1.12 stats, where as 1.12 availability is not actually being implemented for everything else.
Factually, it’s not the same thing as all the other changes, as much as you pretend it is. It isn’t a clear cut case and it puts their design goals at odds with each other. Clearly the inclusion of the 60 set favors one of their design goals over another design goal, and implementation of these design goals has been inconsistent and applied on a case-by-case basis.
There’s absolutely an argument for just making a 1.12 private server clone, even if it isn’t a good one. But it’s not a clear cut argument, nor have the officially stated design goals already been applied consistently. There are unusual cases, such as the PvP armor, which pit their stated design goals against each other.
At the same time, they’re excising a unique experience that was available for the majority of vanilla just to make a 1.12 clone, which isn’t even a faithful 1.12 clone. Let’s be honest too, 1.12 private servers developed into a state of PvP which doesn’t reflect what was normally seen in vanilla. Naxx equipment, which was intentionally overpowered because of the expected TBC reset, was much more common. It forces any long term PvPers into a raid-Naxx-or-die or a twink-or-die situation. Classic can’t recreate vanilla, but it can do some things with the goal of retaining some of the spirit of vanilla, in ways that aren’t detrimental to players.
This addition basically harms no one unless you’re afraid of the 60 armor being taken away and you wanted it to trivialize current content, or you’re afraid that there’s a slippery slope that if once previously available content was made available, then everyone might be riding unarmored mounts or collecting AV flavor text trophies some day.
You’re extremely annoying.
Factually false?
Going in circles, at this point.
And the addition of extra mailboxes throughout the cities harms no one. I still don’t want that change, or any change for that matter.
They chose 1.12 as their reference for the data, and otherwise gated content based on when it came out. As far as the PvP rewards are concerned, the level 60 versions of the blue sets are the 1.12 version.
If Blizzard is being inaccurate to 1.12 data/rewards elsewhere throughout Classic, it should be fixed to be accurate to 1.12. Just because Blizzard has been inconsistent in following their plans doesn’t mean it’s okay to start doing things that never happened in Classic just because you like it.
Hey nolife, get a life and get over it, you’re entire argument is over the semantics of it being a different item id, its irrelevant, there wa at NO POINT in wows history where it was possible to purchase both the lvl 58 set and or the lvl 60 set at the same time.
The lvl 60 set replaced the 58 set and the 58 set was made UNOBTAINABLE thereafter, end of story, it’s not coming back.
That part is factually false.
I don’t think it’s possible to engage in a logical debate with you. You have repeatedly fabricated demonstrably false claims to back up your argument, and simply choose to ignore or claim Blizzard has made a mistake with any non-1.12 implementation. Blizzard does favor 1.12 implementations, but has chosen non-1.12 implementations in multiple places when it is technically simple to implement, and they feel it retains some spirit of vanilla.
That’s not how the shaman helm quest reward is currently implemented in Classic, and they could simply remove the catch-up gear if that was your logical basis for the argument. Not being available at the same time isn’t the same as being the same item. If they intended for them to be the same item, they would have just modified the stats.
And again, [Helm of Latent Power] is a solid example of where Classic has already implemented a reward that was later made unobtainable and was effectively replaced with a different item. Whether or not this item later becomes unavailable in Classic is a mystery, but it’s not really a solid argument since Classic has already crossed that line.
And to be clear, these arguments are to show there is room for interpretation in classic for a non-1.12 implementation, not that a non-1.12 implementation should be added for semantic reasons. This is apparently necessary because some people feel there is no room for deviation from 1.12 despite the various existing non-1.12 implementations in Classic.
The merits of how it would add to the game without taking being a detriment to anyone except those that somehow take offense at anything not 1.12 purism, have been detailed previously. The “semantic” argument is because of the extreme focus on one line of text, lacking context which was expanded upon elsewhere. There’s more room for interpretation, as well as other stated and sometimes contradictory design goals, beyond that one line of text. This is especially true when it comes to examining the relation of implementation to design goals, rather than looking at just statements of how things will be implemented. There is also the de facto argument that simply shows that many of the 1.12 purism claims are false. Classic is not 1.12 clone, and Classic deviates from a 1.12 in many ways, and that includes an example of a currently existing and prior implementation of a Classic reward that got replaced in later patches in vanilla.
Ok waste your time doing mental gymnastics to try and justify this CHANGE, it doesn’t matter.
Its NOT happening, get over it.
Its already been explained to you MULTIPLE times that they couldn’t just “change” the set into the new set because they made the new set require lvl 60 INTENTIONALLY because its too powerful for the lvl 50-59 bracket, there were many lvl 58 and 59 characters wearing the old set so they couldn’t just delete it from the game, they instead just outright replaced them from the vendor with the new lvl 60 set and then made the 58 set UNOBTAINABLE FOREVER.
Its NEVER coming back.
If by “repeatedly fabricated demonstrably false claims” you mean quoted Blizzard directly and provided proof of it, sure.
As for them making mistakes, I never once said they didn’t make mistakes. I explicitly stated, numerous times, that Blizzard has been inconsistent with their implementation, and I have a problem with that.
Please read:
Just because Blizzard got it wrong in some places doesn’t mean I think we should do something that NEVER happened in vanilla.
It’s one thing to use the earlier versions of quest rewards (either intentionally or through oversight); it’s another to suggest that the game be changed to do something totally different.
The choices are 1.4 or 1.11 versions of the blue PvP sets, and you’re saying “how about both?” Both was never a thing in vanilla, so the answer is “no changes.”