The only changes ret needs in PvP are a nerf to ringing clarity and some kind of damage penalty during bubble. Otherwise I think it’s fine.
I’m stuck at this rating because I que purely LFG and I get 8 rating a win and lose 16 a loss. If I really wanted to I could get higher but I don’t have the patients to que that many times just to go up 100 rating.
No, Ret doesn’t need anymore nerfs to anything. It is fine, if anything it should get buffs to its mobility and an actual damage reduction instead of having to constantly heal yourself as a defensive. You really have NO ROOM to complain about Ret, you have more than enough tools to deal with them when they pop wings/burst.
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They should not be able to do full damage during Bubble. I don’t want to nerf their damage (other than ringing clarity – because it is cheesy rng), I simply don’t want them to be able to pop wings and do full damage while they are immune to any peel/cc. It makes Double Ret an incredibly toxic comp.
And I don’t have issues dealing with Ret – my class is also busted. Fire Mage being very good too doesn’t mean that Both Ret and Fire Mage don’t need tuning. For what it’s worth, I am going around advocating returning Rune of Power to BFA’s state to town down combustion burst in pvp. To me this is about a healthier meta that rewards more skilled play and removing cheese, not about tearing other classes down.
Oh no they are immune to cc for 8 seconds every 5 minutes. There is no class in this game that doesn’t have shorter defensive CDs than that. If you think you should just be able to survive without pushing any buttons then I have no idea how you made 2400.
Your class can literally sit in an ice block and wait bubble out, then coming out you just root and double blink, they would have to waste multiple gcds just to catch up to you.
The DH posting and whining here can literally jump into the sky, double dash, has blur, darkness. All lower than 5 minutes.
Let me know if you come up with a class that literally has no tools to survive. Oh and just in case you mention the talent that reduces bubble CD, you cant take that and have 2 horses so you literally hamstring yourself.
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I have no idea why you think the problem is that I can’t deal with Bubble. I have no issue dealing with Bubble. I can alter time the burst. I can Block the burst. My healer can simply use a cd if they’re going me. I can blink away from you/los you, etc. This is not about ME PERSONALLY having difficulty dealing with Ret paladins.
I can’t attack during Block, or heal myself during block (except with the conduit, which tbh, I would prefer was removed). You can do full damage during Divine Shield. Two paladins can rotate Bubble Wings cds and cheese a lot of players, especially in 2’s where you don’t have a Healer. It’s not good for the overall health of the game, just like spamming GPy wasn’t good for the game (even though it wasn’t really OP at higher rating) or Combust being able to kill through PAIN SUPPRESSION isn’t good for the game, even though there is still counterplay – it’s too centralizing.
Getting a kill in PvP should take a setup. Ringing Clarity causes cheese deaths within a GCD, and that shouldn’t happen in this game. It’s unhealthy for the game. Wings + Bubble is an issue when you have two rets doing it who know how to rotate their cds and keep each other up with WoG.
Ret would still be quit good if Damage done was reduced by 30% while Divine Shield was active and ringing clarity were nerfed. Take that time to use WoG (which I don’t want to nerf) and heal up your team-mate. Wait until you land a stun/cc to use wings.
I’m absolutely not opposed to giving Ret more tools. Let’s give em long arm of the law. Let’s give them an additional defensive, like blessing of spellwarding that can be purged baseline.
Let’s get rid of cheesy one shots ACROSS THE BOARD.
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So you are advocating nerfing a class you have no problems dealing with? I have not seen a single double ret team in my 700 arena games. I’m certainly not as high rated as you but I can’t imagine that becomes more of a thing the higher in rating you go. I have on the other hand seen double moonkin, double fire mage, double monk, in 2s and 3s. Tell me which classes need nerfs again. Ret is definitely not the worst offender BY FAR.
I’m just curious how you seem them doing any kind of further nerfs to Divine Toll where it doesn’t just become useless trash?
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Every class you just listed needs to have their potential for cheesy oneshots nerfed. I have seen double ret, it’s a little busted. That doesn’t mean I can’t beat it, but it also doesn’t mean it’s good for the game. I advocate for these changes not because I am trying to make other classes worse. I can probably achieve my pvp goals in almost any meta so w/e. I want the game to be better and less random/cheesy – especially in 2’s. 3’s are better than 2’s, thanks to the presence of a healer toning down cheesy oneshots and emphasizing other aspects of the game like positioning and setups (which is one reason I only care about 3’s rating).
I have supported every mage nerf so far, and I think as much control as mage has (with cc on literally every school) – more nerfs are warranted. Combustion should be strong, and it should kill in a stun with the healer in CC if no defensive is traded. It shouldn’t kill through CD’s, and it still does too often.
I am advocating nerfing Ret’s cheesy rng ringing clarity one shots. I don’t want the class to be bad. Like I said, I’d love to give ret a more interesting niche by buffing its utility, or giving it long arm of the law. But 1-shot cheese burst is bad for the game. Just like I advocated for toning down Combustion, Convoke, Shaman’s dumb RNG burst windows, Monks sustained damage output – etc.
It’s not because I personally can’t deal with them at high rating, but because I feel like the game without all of these things is a better game than the one we are currently playing. The more random bursty oneshots can happen inside of a global through defensives, the worse the game is.
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I’d rather delete this game than become some kind of utility bot. These games are definitely better than 15 minute long better wait until dampening hits 70% before anything can be done. If you want a better arena experience, remove healers from the queue. You are arguing for more set up on a class forum where that class has very little set up to begin with, we can HoJ and burst, we don’t have spamable polymorph.
I forgot to address something you said earlier, 30% damage reduction during bubble. Wings only gives 20%, meaning you would be losing 10% on one of, if not the worst class, with damage outside of CDs. You would have ZERO kill potential.
HoJ is one of the best stuns in the game and is an essential part of setups in every comp involving a paladin. You’re supposed to work together with your teammates to get a setup. Mages can’t do it alone either, that’s why we play with rogues and paladins – we don’t have a stun (which is good!).
I’m not advocating for 15m long games – but kills shouldn’t come from cheesy RNG oneshots, period. I like high damage metas. BFA was bad because it was often impossible to kill even with a good setup. If you get caught in wings/combust in HoJ and the healer is in CC and you don’t have a defensive to trade, you should die.
But you shouldn’t die through your defensive because divine toll crit 3 times or Meteor did so much damage you died through a big cd, or because convoke proc’d 3 starsurges.
Also the point of the change is to make it so that you don’t want to use wings and bubble at the same time, so that’s why I suggested 30%. Rather, you want to cross CC the enemy team and pop wings in a HoJ.
There is no room for bubble to take any nerfs. If you can just be chain CC’d during Wings you will never be a threat to anybody. I don’t know if you have actually played this class but maybe you should give it a whirl, see how wonderful it is when you can only move during freedom and bubble when a Warlock is on the other team.
Bubble and Wings used to not be a thing, and then bubble gave -50% dmg dealt. These were all removed bc they were out-dated mechanics for the current game.
I get people are getting meme 1 shotted by Ret’s, but if you take the time to look most specs are capable of doing this (and some arent designed in that way i.e aff lock but they still do burst).
The game is desinged around cooldown stacking and the power of cooldowns, this is just the byproduct of that. They would have to revamp the game in order to change this playstyle. So by gutting ret the way you are suggesting would be akin to saying “ret doesnt belong in arena” .
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I have been on the receiving end of some crazy DT rng on my alt hunter and yeah it sucks, but ret doesn’t need to be nerfed any more. It’s not even being played in tournaments because it gets kited and controlled too easily.
You will forever and always see people complaining about rogues and paladins in this game because these are the noob killer classes.
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All RNG one-shots should be removed from the game. And nerfing ringing clarity and Bubble + Wings would not gut the spec. If you think that, you don’t understand why it’s good in the first place. You’re just like Fire Mages crying over Greater Pyroblast having a CD for the last six months.
My thinking is simple. If a spec is no longer top tier, it doesn’t need nerfs. If they wanted to normalize the RNG of Divine Toll thats fine, but I don’t trust Blizzard to compensate for nerfs so I would rather they just leave Ret alone. My God its been nerfed so many times already.
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This is factually false. Ret was garbage in PVP last expac. Prot wasn’t viable until this season. Holy was B-tier healer.
And who said B-Tier was bad? B-Tier just means that you don’t have something certain like spirit link or disc dmg reduction, you still do good healing just not the best of the best. At the end of the expansion holy was actually super good because they could do 3 hoj back to back in around 10 sec if they got procs. Oh also read the actual paragraph before you respond next time because I said
I agree, nerf rogues.
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So this was not a 1 shot. Just like you dh’s have done for the last 2 expansions he lined up his cd’s and burst you down. And dh’s have been overtuned since they were brought into the game only in SL have they been toned down. And I am guessing your one of those that hate it.
You obviously had no defensives up and he had all offensives up. Literally every class has atleast one spec that can do this btw, this isn’t just a ret issue it’s how PVP is currently. It’s called Bursty meta for a reason.
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