I wasn’t talking about hunter, it was “survival hunter vs enhance shaman”.
Anyway, You have no idea of the classes’ ultilties. There is a reason for enhance shaman being one the best high key pushers. I think you better learn other classes’ ultitlies besides your basic “soothe, lust, buffs” to actually say “group composition matters”. Moreover, survival hunter’s damage is at abysmal level that it’s better to bring another tank. You are arguing because survival hunter and guardian druid are just birds of a feather flock.
The keys in df and at that lvl are scaling very very hard.
Its an exponential scaling soo the difference of 2 lvls is very large, aka a difference of more then 100% scaling at arpund that lvl.
I think overall the better the tank the more margin for error exists and allows dps/healer to make many more mistakes before becoming noticeable. This is why I think people like the meta class as it creates the most margin for error and in PUGS mistakes are amplified by toxicity and often end the run as people will quit early even if it was them who made the error.
There are many mythic+ players that have benefited greatly from overpowered tanks disguising their errors and do not even realize it. As soon as they group with a tank that requires less mistakes and more skill from the group overall they under-perform and blame the tank.
Taking a sub optimal tank to a 20+ increases the overall difficulty for the group and many players want the easiest road to success. Its not a matter of IF the tank can do it, its a matter of can the group complete the key with the sub optimal tank with the same chance for success as an optimal one. It might not always be about not trusting the bear tank, the key holder may not trust the PUG to overcome the additional challenge of taking the bear no matter how small the extra difficulty may be.
Because Warriors, Paladins, Monks, Death Knights and Demon Hunters do things we do, but better.
Warriors literally do all but group healing better than the Druid does.
Because a mediocre Prot Warrior is better than an amazing Guardian Druid. If the class n specs are that fundamentally different, then yes the community perception is going to be bad. It’s sad, it’s terrible. Could you do it? Yes, but will you do better than that Prot Warrior? Absolutely not, in any way, shape or capacity you will be beaten in every single regard compared to that Prot Warrior.
But I do
Damage output. Always.
This has nothing to do with it.
25 to 27 is only a 25% difference. The scaling you’re looking at is compared to a 2 key.
So if something is hitting for 100k in a 25 key, it’s only gonna hit for 125k in a 27 key.
It’s not going from 100k to 200k (100% increase)
The only thing that would make the tank sub optimal is if he can’t mitigate incoming damage and/or can’t hold aggro.
DPS problems are not the fault of the tank. Nor the healer.
Incorrect. Again, the BEST Warrior is only 1-2 key levels. I’d take the best Guardian Druid over the 500th ranked Warrior any day.
Not as a healer you wouldn’t, no. There is a reason why, often, people want meta. It is because they want the best of the best. Not saying the Guardian couldn’t do it fine, I’m saying why would the person take that chance when they know that the Prot Warrior is better? The higher the key the bigger the risk you have for it failing, so again, why would you put yourself in that position in the first place? I’m all for non metas, but most people aren’t willing to risk their key for a “chance” at success when they could just get the best tanking class and the “chance” to fail decreases dramatically.
Why would a healer want to spend more time healing a Guardian vs less time healing a Prot Warrior literally performing the same thing in the same key on the same level? The Warrior is better in nearly every regard, so again, why would they want that to happen?
You take enough risk just forming the group n stuff.
If my chance at successfully completing the key in time was 70% with a Guardian vs 95% with a Warrior, why would I do it with the Guardian then?
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Haven’t done it myself since getting into such keys is troublesome, but I’m thinking RLP during a fortified week would work pretty well, as long as the pugs are people who typically do +22s rather than the people who typically do +16s. RLP trash doesn’t hit the tank very hard and the pull timing lines up well with Incarn. Tyrannical RLP is a very different story.
#1 Guardian is better than the #500 Warrior. Who’s better?
The Guardian shows that he’s got the better experience and understanding of his class and the dungeon than the Warrior.
And again, taking an over-achieved Guardian over an under-achieved Warrior will net a better result.
Do you risk the Warrior who’s 3 keys under your key you’re asking for, or the Guardian who’s 2-3 keys over what you’re asking for?
Competent tank > meta
You can play your key, can’t you ? Since I started tanking 20 at 392 ilvl, none would have invited me for that ilvl. You are 411 ilvl, but you haven’t timed any real 20s, are you expecting others to invite the worst class right now?
Did you get abused while growing up or something? And need to compensate for it by abusing others? Why are you going around throwing pointless insults at random people in this thread and other threads also?
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I dont see anything similar to insults here. You said you had troubles to get into a group 20. Then I only suggested you to play your own keys because with you m+ profile, you should have troubles to get invited. Why does this become an insult here ? Arent you too sensitive ?
#1 Guardian isn’t going to be doing keys outside the very top of what they’re doing. Class wise, still the Warrior, regardless of how good or skilled you are there are still things that Warriors do that you, as a Druid, cannot. It doesn’t matter about your skill anywhere close as to as much as you think compared to what class you are. Spell Reflect is better than Survival Instincts any day of the week for what you’re comparing them to.
Shield Block is better than dodging, better than taking any amount of physically mitigated damage because you don’t take damage from physical attacks during it. So again, class mechanics matter more than skill for a lot of things.
Not always, no, it won’t. Why? Because again there are things some classes can do that others simply cannot because it’s not built into their class. Nobody but a Priest will give you Power Infusion. Some mechanics are class based and it puts them 3 tiers above others in certain regards.
Depends on what you’re going for. For an ultra high key of course you’d take the Guardian in this particular scenario. If you’re talking lower keys then you still go with the Warrior because they do more damage, on a whole, they need less attention to them, as a whole, they control crowds better, as a whole.
Not always.
Was an example for awesome vs mediocre only.
Yes class wise, Warriors are better. They’ve got more tools. No denying that. But the class is just there. It’s the person behind that’s driving that makes it as awesome as it is. Which is why I’ll take an awesome off tank vs a mediocre Warrior.
Wrong. Block absorbs damage equal to its armor value (which is why higher ilvl shields should be the first go to for the increased armor value), whereas Dodge avoids all damage for that swing.
Problem is: it’s too difficult to get the dodge skill up high enough to be a reliant form of mitigation.
Then why are they 3 tiers behind of the have they abilities to be 3 tiers ahead?
What’s the high end of “low keys” that we’re talking here? Ran a few 16s with Bears that needed next to no attention whatsoever in the run, did phenomenal damage as well as group healing.
Always. The only exception is if the competent tank is meta.
Take someone who’s never Tanked before and give them a Warrior who’s got all the tools to be invincible and needs no healing because they’re Gods and the class is built off of fundamentals and take someone who’s been maining.
Who’s your choice? You taking the Warrior because it’s a Warrior? Or you taking the person who knows how to tank?
This is the issue that pops with FoTM re-rollers. Which is why I’ll take that experienced Guardian over the inexperienced Warrior.
Bring the player. Not the class
Dodge gets DR, SBlock doesn’t. DR being diminishing returns. Every time you dodge your chance to dodge the next swing goes down. Every time you block it stays the same regardless.
Outside of Monks, you cannot dodge spells so it is 100% useless on that. The other tanks get talents to make their block mitigation block spells, too.
Also, again dodge suffers from diminishing returns, blocks do not.
Wasn’t specifically meaning Priests are 3 tiers ahead, just an example of an ability that puts a class way ahead of other classes in certain situations. How many other classes that buff will you see give anything close to what Power Infusion is excluding Heroism/Bloodlust/Timewarp? The answer is none.
Cool, and compare that to the average players. Average bear player vs average prot war player. See how that works out for you because it’s almost certain the Warrior will be better with less effort in almost all regards. Not quite all, but almost all.
Something I found healers do enjoy for certain affixes, like grievous, is having a bear tank that week to help provide group healing because After the Wildfire is quite an amazing talent and def great group utility. On affixes like Volcanic it won’t be as good because most people can dodge volcanic pretty easily so that healing doesn’t matter then.
Again, as I said a meta tank vs non meta tank the meta tank is the best and what most people will flood to. The reasoning it’s best is because of how easy it is to play, how little damage it takes, how much damage they deal, the amount of control they give the group over the enemy mobs, etc.
You keep pushing extremes to a very extreme angle here all to try to justify yourself and your situation. I’m telling you like it is from a PUG perspective, from a perspective of equals, too.
All skill levels equal, Warrior vs Druid tank wise, who wins? Hands down it’s the Warrior.
That hasn’t been a thing in a while. Take raiding, for example, you want to have your raid buffs. It doesn’t matter that people are inexperienced, if they’re the only one for the raid buff and your option is no raid buff vs raid buff but on an inexperienced player you’re going to take the raid buff over not having it, nothing less.
Some class mechanics make it so regardless you will not avoid them even if they haven’t a clue to how to play the class/spec.
Congrats, you’re different. Now take the example of reroller Prot Warrior with an equally skilled Guardian Druid, who’s your choice? All things being equal; IO/mythic+ score, number of dungeons they’ve done, key levels, item level, everything is equal including skill and it comes down to class vs class, who are you taking? Again; it’s the Warrior, especially on non grievous weeks.
Correct, and it resets after the roll for dodge fails. But then we’re back to square one. Issue still being that Dodge > Block. But you can’t raise Dodge high enough to be efficient.
And depending on the amount, even with DR, Dodge can still pull ahead.
Nor was I
Not true. Your “average” player will chase meta specs. Your Bear players are going to be the ones that love the class and take the time to learn the one and outs.
The average Bear is better than the average Warrior. It’s when you start getting into higher tiers of play when you see people’s skill and knowledge and use of abilities pull ahead with classes that are fundamentally better (Warrior vs Bear)
A “bad” spec driven by a better player does better than a better spec driven by a bad player.
I’ve seen a lot of bear players who switched to bears because “easy to learn to tank class” who didn’t use IF, and a bunch of Warriors who switched because it’s meta, who burned up their SB charges and didn’t touch IP.
Never denied this. I even mentioned this is my previous post.
It’s still a thing. 5% AP buff is pointless if your DPS cannot stay alive to use said buff.
Probably the Paladin if I’m left with two people who don’t know what they’re doing.
Depends. Got a Brez in group? 
Not all fotm rerollers are bad. A good player can be good at any class they play, so they change their class, which can produce the best result. It’s easy to see that from the class representation at high keys, the strong classes’ population always spike up during their meta because good players flock to those classes.
In any cases, a 10 year experienced bear doesnt necessarily mean he’s better than a 1 month experienced reroller in pve. Some one-class players, who have played one class for years, are ranked 1 at their specs when their specs are at the bottom of the barrel. But when their specs become meta, they just vaporise from the leaderboard.
No, but I wouldn’t say that even half of WoW players are good either.
And a lot of people are swayed by the meta list. Like it was odd making a DH towards the end of BfA and having to explain to people who were doing higher keys with their DH that interrupting mobs was a DPS increase =/
Granted I play in the area of KSM and just over, so I deal with a lot of those who re-roll and it shows they haven’t put the time in on the class
Bears are fine, they can do any content that is run by players. They are a solid 5/10 tank, completey average.
The issue is our competitors for the most part can do whatever we can do and more, we have no niche and do not excel in any area.
I can understand why people chase meta, despite bears being perfectly capable.
Just for an example a Prot Pally can do everything we can, however also bring additional interrupts via avenging shield. That is less group damage which allows the healer to provide more DPS.
They have bubble taunt they can game for the group benefit and a multitude of cooldowns.
Bears have none of these things.
Tank design is solid this expac, outside of the outliers (Bears and Warriors) each spec has an identity and strengths/weaknesses in certain aspects they need to play around.
Tldr; Bears are fine for any content, our competition for that tanking spot in M+ is simply better
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Bear has group healing from after the wild fire, 2x short cd AoE hard stops, stamp roar, brez, and the best buff in game. As I mentioned above, the issue is that bear is naked outside of incarnation, and incarnation has 2 min cd, which is extremely long to rely on for the current meta. Bears were fine before when all tanks had mitigation gaps. But, currently they are no longer viable when other tanks can do bear pulls with no down time.
Besides AtW, druid has those things. Not necessarily bear and AtW is irregular group healing, something we have little control over