Mr. ACTYUALLY just likes to argue. Just ignore him. He makes a devil’s advocate argument no matter what you say. You could tell him that the sun is bright and he’ll go stare at it until his eyes bleed to prove you wrong. “ACTYUALLY THIS AINT THAT BRIGHT”…
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Please be mature, that’s not what happens and you know it. You always act like this when someone disagrees with you. Any time I “argue” on the forums its for people being hyperbolic or misinformed.
Telling someone that SV hunters can use barrage is not arguing, telling someone that vicious hunt does not cleave is not arguing.
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I’m hoping Wailing Arrow is removed from all spec trees and moved into the Dark Ranger hero talents. Touch it up a bit and make it work more seamlessly with the given rotations. It has always seemed odd that they would include it as is in the current specs with no real synergy, almost as if they liked the spell from shadowlands and just didn’t want to let go of it and ran out of ideas so just said “ehhh throw it in there”
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Inb4 someone strips the context that we should be able to path through multi-point nodes after spending a single point on them… We should be able to path through multi-point nodes after spending a single point on them.
Now…
Because, by and large, they’re also trees that lack satisfying customizability. You’re fixating on the symptom, though, not the disease, which still leaves empty filler talents (+% stat) while labeling them “fine cus just one-point” even while, where not already obligatory due to pathing, worsening choice balance.
Because they have the time now to increase how well trees can give satisfying customizability. Which was always a major goal but rarely the result of DF talent trees. Because they were a rushed mess.
Same as above. As the average strength of talents and talent path increases, there’s less need to gate the stronger “keep as they were or we riot” talents from previous expansions.
Why say “fine” and then not even use said example?
It gives you “5 more points to spend” only if you make each of those 5 nodes must-picks by doubling their power-per-point.
And for those that don’t want to play around Kill Shot? Or, if you do not make those talents OP, you’ll have decreased the extent to which one can play around Kill Shot. In either case, you’re reducing the number of choices.
I mean, literally the 5th one listed does so. What kind of “digging” doesn’t even require a scroll wheel?
And again, the question is whether they were already decently powerful point expenditures each or which worked with equally lackluster other paths to act simply as gates (“they suck but you have to take them anyways”), which are what really hurts customization, not the fact that one can spend this
For the talents that offer only basic stats (1% crit per rank or similar bull) without being off to the side and purposely faintly, faintly undertuned as to remain merely optional, the problem is still there even when squished down, because the problem is that they’re fillers, not necessarily that they’re 2-pointers.
Let’s put it this way:
You’ve got two talent effects that can augment X CD. One is more commonplace, not always worth taking, but sees obvious and interesting use cases. The other is worth taking only if you took the other.
You can now…
- Split these across two nodes, each taking a point;
- Halve their power each and put them into a single node with a single point;
- Put them in a single node at more than half power, making them overpowered and therefore nigh obligatory; or
- Put them in a single node but with two points, through which one can path after even just a single point spent, with the more broadly applicable effect made the first rank and the effect synergetic to and dependent upon the first being placed at the later rank.
Same, with Wailing Arrow buffed (faster projectile speed, no cast time or optional charge time only)… so long as Sentinel and Pack Leader get similar free utility.
Which, tbf, describes quite a few of the DF talents.
No, you can’t. Please stop spreading misinformation for the sake of trolling the forums.
Yes you can? I literally just did it to test this. I’m talking about current WoW, in Dragonflight.
You can’t swap cantrip weapons in combat. You can swap normal weapons (without any special passive or on-use abilities) as much as you want, it only occurs a GCD. In the wise words of Rokks, please stop spreading misinformation 
Yes we should, but we can’t. So 2pt nodes are very restrictive on a tree. They do not benefit anything or anyone.
I’m not fixating on that? Go look at the new WW tree and get back to me. There are very, very few filler talents and the entire tree is 1pt. Even then, I wouldn’t even mind having a surplus of filler talents if it meant they were all cheap. My tree right now is FULL of filler and it’s expensive filler at that. The alternative is much better, even if I can’t get the warlock/mage/monk treatment.
Would you rather have expensive filler nodes or cheap filler nodes? Personally, I’d rather have the latter.
I do not see any excitement or enjoyment for spending 2 talent points on 5/10% mongoose bite damage when I could instead spend 1 talent point on 10% mongoose bite damage.
Yes, which is what they’ve been doing almost every example of squishing 2pters to 1pt.
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I did just update that huge Wish List of stuff I posted a bit over a week ago here. Its got a lot, but figured I’d mention it regardless!
And a note, while yes you can change weapons in combat, its ON the GCD, making it extremely unreliable and worthless on like, 99% of cases. It’d be a net loss of DPS to ever swap to say, a Ranged Weapon on Survival just to shoot Arcane Shot, or Steady Shot, or yeah, Barrage. Or to swap to a Sword and Shield on an Arms Warrior to use Shield Slam or Shield Block.
Each spec has its own defensives built in now, or universal class-specific ones, as well as much better DPS options that utilize their preferred weapon thats its always a loss to try and swap. Which is to say that Barrage should absolutely go to MM (and Stampede should go to BM), and new stuff should be added to replace them, among many other things, since Barrage is a dead Survival Hunter, even if you weapon swap.
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The irony is hilarious
You said nothing is stopping you. Except, you know the cantrip that’s on the weapon every hunter will be using. Just stop it.
So to summarize, you’re accusing me of spreading misinformation for explaining something that you can do in game, right now? Do you know there are players who don’t raid who don’t have cantrip weapons? Do you know there are players who only engage in WQs and don’t have cantrips? Do you know you won’t have cantrips when you level up to a certain point?
This is what I mean when I say there are an awful lot of people on this forum who think they know what they’re talking about but get basic things about the game wrong and get very hostile when they’re called out.
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They could flip the switch on that whenever the hell they please.
Which is because they literally made more talent effects. That is always good. We’re no longer in the beta of talent trees, and we can see the difference.
But, again, that isn’t just because of talent trees refusing to allow for multiple simultaneously-usable talents in a single node. It’s because they have more talents with which to replace the placeholders/filler.
The more thorough from the improvements to WW’s talent tree is things like how one can seemingly choose to “hard mode” by skipping Ascension, can focus towards Tiger Palm or Blackout Kick, etc. without making the opposite in pair unusable.
But that gets increasingly difficult as the tree gets denser and denser and when allowing for increasingly sophisticated customizations, especially if you’re not willing to put augmenting talents in the same node as the originals they depend on (thereby blocking off a path or forcing the original to an edge).
Neither, so long as they’re in the way or competitively tuned. That should be painfully obvious to you by now.
Fillers should solely be “easy mode” options at the edges of the tree for those who would otherwise be turned off by the complexity of a spec that’s had its obligatory fillers replaced with real (i.e., gameplay-affecting) talents.
But that gets a lot harder if design refuses to consolidate singular dependent follow-up augmenting talents into the same node as their parent, thereby taking up that edge space already.
I don’t see any excitement or enjoyment for +10% Mongoose Bite damage, period.
But you’d have known that, Non, if one’s broader message was of any import to you.
Again:
The latter is what multi-point nodes provide once the devs permit them to be pathed through off a single talent. Solely that. They de-clutter the talent space by acting as clusters.
If they’re willing to go further and have nodes with multiple, non-sequential choices as well (choice nodes, but you can pick up to X instead of solely one), all the better. But that, too, is a multi-point node.
Plenty of Hunters won’t have or even know of the existence of weapon cantrips.
That said, I still don’t know why anyone would pretend that 3s of wasted uptime isn’t prohibitive.
Sure, but again, they haven’t and have made no indications that they would do that. However, they have squished a lot of 2pt nodes into 1pt for the same power value.
I mean, you have to choose one though unless you’re one of god’s chosen specs and get a ton of new talent nodes that do many things at once for only 1pt.
I would love if we had a tree like Warlocks or Monks or Paladin where it was all(mostly) interesting nodes that were 99% 1pt.
If my options are a hunter are a 2pt filler node or a 1pt filler node for the same effect…I’m picking the latter. Why wouldn’t anyone?
Why would anyone want a 2pt node in today’s game?
I don’t either, but you aren’t reading what myself or Gorkroth are saying.
A vast majority of the updated talent trees in the game are moving to having 1pt nodes do the same thing previous 2pt nodes did.
2pt nodes (in the game currently, not how altani thinks the game should be) are a waste of talent tree economy. That’s all there is to it.
Kettle?
Again, this started with a cautionary note akin to those given when “More choice nodes!” was the forum’s constantly waved banner.
Just as choice nodes (as they are currently designed) mean that you literally cannot take the opposite in the pair, splitting all effects (no matter how rigidly dependent the later ones may be) into multiple nodes at one point each instead of simply allowing for the augmenting node to be a second rank literally blocks off a path the talent tree could otherwise use for greater pathing freedom.
Never have I said that I prefer spending more talents on filler. I’ve made the opposite abundantly clear.
I simply see no point in not consolidating points into single-node clusters where there is obvious opportunity for doing so.
Not sure how I failed to notice these three before, but…
#1. I’d really rather not.
I don’t want a BM-but-with-less-APM. I could see Aimed Shot becoming a charged-up skill (say, with a minimum cast time of 1.5s and max of 2.5s total), but I like that it punishes us for not pre-positioning such that we can get out the full cast.
For what outlying situations as are out of our hands (we predicted all else correctly, but got an unpredictable —no ICD, no tells, no timer— random-target attack on us that forced us to move) and would otherwise screw us per some half-second’s margin of safety, I’d still prefer the difference be made up in our defensive kit. (Say… by delaying non-raidwide area of effect damage by a half-second allowing Disengage to nullify that delayed/staggered amount.)
#2. Likewise, I’d rather not. Volley is considerably more annoying to work around than Multi-shot.
Not that I’m satisfied with things as they stand, either, to be clear. I would love a talent that allowed us access to, in effect, the lingering guaranteed Trick Shots windows that DF S3 (and S4) tier provides.
I also think Multi-shot (and Hydras, and plenty of others like Hailstorm, etc.) need some additional polish on their nearby-enemies detection, especially against targets that are not yet engaged but are so close to each other that pulling any will pull the others anyways).
#3. As mentioned on the other thread, please don’t limit this to Lone Wolf.
It makes no sense to arbitrarily exclude pet users from that capacity and its accordant vibes.
Tbh its not rocket science when other classes have 0 or close to 0 2 point nodes why tf should we be sandbagged with 15+
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I think there’s miscommunication happening.
Yes, this is what we have ben saying. They are moving to having very few 2pters. If we have the same effect for spending 1pt as 2pt, why would you ever want the latter?
that’s the reality of the situation. blizzard is observably moving to cheaper trees as they rightfully should.
there is no universe where it’s okay for 10+ specs in the game to have less than 5 2pt nodes and several even having 0 pt nodes while there are still specs like Shadow, Ele/Enh, and all 3 hunters having ~10 or more.
The newer trees have cheaper nodes and more exciting options.
The older trees are full of boring filler that on top of being boring filler, is also expensive.
I am simply saying if I HAVE to have boring filler, I’d rather it be 1pt, so I can spend my points on more power.
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You’re just listing all the things the game doesn’t stop you from doing. Ok so you can equip a level 10 bow and staff and set up some macros then use barrage as survival. Great. Perfect. Let’s see what else doesn’t the game stop you from doing. I suppose the game doesn’t stop you from playing with a fishing pole and cloth boots so let’s add that to the conversation. It doesn’t stop you from playing with your head in a camel’s hump so let’s talk about that. And it obviously doesn’t stop you from trolling the forums all day long. But clearly these are all great points to make on this guys thread.
I have never seen such elegant moving of the goalposts if it were an olympic sport I think you’d be the favourite for the gold
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No. Those are different.
No one has ever said that they want more filler. This has never been an argument between more or less filler. I cannot for the life of me imagine why you would think it has been despite repeated and explicit confirmation otherwise.
The actual questions to which we’ve given differing answers are simply “Is increasing the number of obligatory nodes acceptable so long as it means more player power?” to which I answered no, and “Should a single node be able to support multiple choices that are not exclusive with one another?” to which I answered yes.
That’s it.
It having anything to do with filler, per se, is entirely your conflation. Yes, many filler talents in our extended-beta trees (Dragonflight, still the first draft of this new customization system) are multi-point, but that’s because they lacked any other ideas with which to fill that space, not because a single node supporting multiple choices without those excluding each other is inherently filler.
Agreed. As I said from the start. So long as it does not increase the relative cost of taking utility that we’d be expected to have and are iconic to the class and its gameplay (Traps, Tranq, Misdirection, etc.).
- For which I long since gave my preferred solution: Baselining the basic utilities and making any actual utility talents stronger in accordance with the increased power per talent point of the improved trees.
“If you’re going to double the strength of currently optional talents, increase the point-efficiency of utility as well, lest they become increasingly punishing to take.”
I think if you were able to summarise your points rather than having your posts balloon out there would be a lot less communication issues ngl
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