Because it is often possible to still get some packs…but not because you are a f2p player. But because you play the game.
And its typically the route that the packs/things you get by playing are not on the same level as the person whale-ing.
There are two thoughts being pushed here by the people referencing the traditional P2W scheme.
Exclusive to the shop.
A non-negotiable type of winning.
Exclusive to the shop comes in two brands. A hard and soft exclusive, for a lack of a better term. In hard exclusive, its physically impossible to get it outside of the shop. In Soft Exclusive, its extremely unreasonable to expect to achieve the same outside of the shop. Example. Diablo Immortal. You could not get the same stuff from the shop unless you played for like 50 years.
The second point, a non negotiable form of winning. These games have strict winning layouts. A ladder system, a ranking system. You are either number 1 in the game…or you aren’t. There is no grey area.
For WoW we are saying none of this matters. Gearing up in game does not take some unreasonable amount of time if you dont use money. Helped a friend get back to ilvl 415 on a fresh 70 in about 11 days.
Don’t waste your time with these guys, they’re delusional. Maybe one day they’ll run into an actual P2W game, then maybe they’ll realize how stupid they look rn.
It more feels like the opposite, to me at least. With how hard people discredit others with say…IO for example.
You see someone that has an in game accomplishment you don’t have, so you want to bring em down. “Oh he probably just paid for it. There is no way he is better than me. WoW is just P2W”
Shoot you can’t even P2W in pvp for a fact this xpac, since honor and conq gear r all we have and no longer need to upgrade anything. So wow pvp P2W? not possible, and PVE idk how you can P2W in personally but I guess spending thousands to see bigger numbers then a few others who will most likely get those numbers aswell within the next couple months, then I guess that’s winning?. All that just for it to reset and you have to do it over again lol, wow you WON alright.
No, I’ve adequately stated how I view the winning aspect. Intentionally or not you’re also parroting what I said earlier about how everyone here wants to focus on defining winning means without acknowledging the fact that it involves paying. At the end of the day that is far more critical because money is a real tangible thing that drives motivation for developers. Finding any system that is successful in increasing their profit is grounds to expanding those systems further.
I’ve also stated that I find it nonsensical I think it is to try to break down the term P2W instead of just viewing it as a term in and of itself. You’re just getting down into some really semantic hot garbage where people start to try to argue “No no, it’s pay to advantage” or “Pay to convenience” or “Pay to skip” and it’s all just mental gymnastics at that point.
And I’m sure you’ll argue that the distinction is important, but the reality is none of those other typical games we think of as P2W offer any sort of conclusive win mechanism either; they all release new content regularly to get you to buy more stuff. All P2A/P2S/P2C really tries to do is downplay the impact of the what the payment system does to the game’s balance.
I don’t really even know what you’re trying to argue here.
This is where you are objectively wrong in every way possible.
Winning in P2W games is not open to debate. You are worried about “semantics” on a conversation based around a term’s definition. Thats literally the most important time to care about semantics.
The reality is every single game I have seen that fits the traditional mold of “P2W” 100% offers a conclusive win mechanism.
I am stating that a person that “pays 2 win” in WoW is not above a non-payer in gear achieved or having the ability to accomplish anything in game.
You dont want to focus on semantics, because it allows a fluid definition of “winning” which is needed for WoW to qualify as a Pay to Win game.
You can’t look at MDI, Arena Tourneys. You cant look at achieving a certain gear ilvl. You cant look at playing well. Because none of that happens in WoW when one "P2W"s. You have to remove any aspect of traditional “winning” and create some scenario where “well I won because people saw me in my high ilvl armor” and pretend that is a win.
Time. You win time not having to put in effort to get your character where you want it. This was exaggerated further for PvPers in SL which thank God that’s over.
But if you have the materials and some gold, you can have crafters make you weapons up to ilevel 415. You can pay for runs with gold to get the materials. Though it is still arguable on whether having the items alone is an actual win. iLevel isn’t the end of the game.
This depends on your definition for “win.” For me, I’m not sure “pay to win” is even possible, since my kind of fun doesn’t depend on gear all that much. For others, “fun” is all about having the newest and latest shinies and the titles that go with them. Those guys can pay to win.
Because one is buying power directly from the shop and is borderline gambling and the other is relying on the community of players that are already weeks ahead of you to carry you.
They’re both pay to win but to different extent.
Look you can buy full mythic achievements and all the gear in the world but if you’re trash you’re trash.
Think about things critically and not just call people fried, no one is going to take you seriously if all you do is throw insults.