Paladin...What's the point?

I main a Paladin, Prot and Ret, I would holy except it’s hot garbage. I’m slowly coming to realize the entire class is really hot garbage. I’ve been playing my Vengeance DH this past week and they do almost everything a pally can do but better and more efficient. Sure paladins have a bubble and a brez but DHs have 3 aoe stuns, 2 aoe interrupts, a 15sec kick, passive healing that heals more than I could ever wish for on a Paladin. Aoe dps for days without having to depend on HP… combo points literally fall from the sky no need to build any really as well as being the most mobile class in the game. Havoc is just a better all around spec than ret because I don’t have to choose whether I’m single target or aoe spec, it works for both and is very strong.

I also encountered for the first time this week, going oom as prot and not being able to cast WoG… WTF. 1% left on a 23 Deios and wipe because I went oom in prot. I almost threw my headset through my screen.

I’m really to the point I don’t see the point in playing or bring pallies into high keys, unless they have the lego and I need a melee… otherwise there’s no point, everyone else does it better.

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Then play DH, problem solved

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I am. Still trying to figure out the point to my favorite class though.

Well, Ret AOE damage is fine. Ret also has a short-cooldown interrupt, an amazing single target stun, and an AOE daze. They are one of the tankiest dps specs in the game, and make up for reduced crowd control abilities (compared to demon hunters) with WAY more powerful defensive and party support abilities (cleanse, blessings of prot/sac/freedom, bubble, LoH, bomb emergency WoGs, ranged battle rez, 80% of their damage working at 20÷ yards, lots of passive party maintenance healing through judgement, consecration, and divine storm)

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Damage is good, if you’re spec’d into ST or AoE no argument there, just sucks having to change specs depending on what you want when other dps don’t need to, definitely hamstrings rets. I wish it wasn’t just one or the other. I guess it’s sad feeling when you play a new class and it does everything better, I hope pallies get some future love but from what I’ve seen coming its more Nerf bats for no reason.

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i mean ngl, if you went oom on prot then theres worse issues that need to be addressed. you can pop by the hammer of wrath discord to see if any prot mains can help ya

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It’s something I had never experienced before, and to be honest, I scoffed at others who said this was a problem. And really it’s not necessarily a problem, however it becomes a problem when your whole group is dead and you’ve been soloing for the past 5 mins when, WoG button stops working.

It’s quite possible that’s the reason for attaching mana to WoG, but no other classes really have to deal with that extra dependency, I mean for the love of god we already have to build HP. If my group wasn’t dead, this wouldn’t have been an issue.

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i mean theres your problem then

every tank specs have to rely on something ngl. also depending on key level as well. considering how strong wog is and how mouch resource ppal can shove out of its bum, its a pretty good restriction to make wog cost mana to prevent 4 dps comps. i dont think you should reasonably expect to solo argubly the most annoying m+ boss in the season with various mechanics that required two people to have a brain.

i still cant help but think this is a deeper issue. i can probably point out some issues if you want if you have a log

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You’re talking about not bringing a ret to high keys vs a dh?

I don’t think any of your reasons made much sense because you casually washed over what BoP/bubble/freedom actually contribute to dungeons individually. Aside from the fact rets damage is very good, the utility and offhealing is quite insane too. DH has almost no group utility, and it only has darkness for healing. On top of that ret is also very good on certain weeks too like Afflicted for example, can make that affix go from extremely annoying for the group to barely noticeable. DH is good as well don’t get me wrong, but not seeing reasons to bring a ret to a group is kind of wild, this is one of rets best seasons. Prot paladin owns too, mostly due to controlling mobs and mass interrupts, plus good healing.

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I think the problem in this case is that the game is balanced such that ANY tank could even think about surviving for five whole minutes without a single outside heal

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Yeah trying to solo a high tyrannical (I’m assuming?) Deios for five minutes before going OOM isn’t really a detractor for the spec, all other tanks except BDK would’ve died long before that.

VDH and Prot Paladin have their own strengths and weaknesses, I wouldn’t necessarily say one is worse/better than the other right now. As for ret/havoc, the rotation for ret feels far better to me than playing havoc which does most of its damage within essence break windows and a passive throw glaive proc. It’s a choice between two extremely good classes, just play what you enjoy.

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The primary issue with WoG is it’s double tax. It used to be mana only, then they wanted it to be a choice between it or WoG, so they change it to Holy Power. So, they built so many talents around WoG then saw some pallies survive where other tanks would have as well, so they introduced a mana cost back, thus a double tax. Now, if you don’t have mana, you can’t use WoG and many talents that rely on it. You basically can’t even help cleanse due to it taking 10% of your mana every time. So, things prot pally tanks specialized in for so long that made them appealing, such as off healing and helping to cleanse, they no longer can do and other tanks have been given those abilities without any real penalty.

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Prot paladins can definitely still off-heal and off-cleanse, they just can’t do it constantly the entire dungeon. Additionally, no, most other tanks do not have those tools at all, let alone without penalty

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Only thing I will agree is the wog mana cost is the most stupid change theyve made to paladin. Just baffling

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Maybe he meant self-healing?
Which they all do have now.

Off-healing only Prot Paly, Druid and MAYBE Monk if you go out of your way I guess.
But I’d add that Paly is the more significant of the three by a good margin.

Druid you have to spec into it in the class tree and leave other useful spells so they don’t really take it.

Same for monk.

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I am a descent paladin i play the 3 specs and none are garbage.

I also play dh on both specs.

As for your tank argument: dh have alot of control but almost no utility besides consume magic and chaos brand, its important to not confuse crowd control and utility dh have great mobility and its a better version of what blood dks are they heal alot and have descent mitigations specially on physical.

Now lets talk about protection: protection is meant to be for starters and all rounder they are a mitigation tank, this means they reduce damage and heal it back based on wog procs, they have a massive damage reduction in consacration with any defensives, their defensives are GENERAL which means it does not matter if its physical or magical damage all damage is mitigated regardless, they have 2 cheat deaths and inmunity + aoe taunt and a 100% uptime on defensives provided you dont overlap and miss play.

Lets talk about their control: they have some descent ones:

  • single target long duration stun(hammer of justice)

  • instant cast aoe disorient (blinding light), comparable to aoe fear rune/sigil of vengance dh

  • their regular kick rebuke

  • avengers shield (or shield slice for capitan america fans) its a single target silence and interrupt that resets alot, can be held or spammed depending if the monster is silence inmune or not this shield also bounce and provide a shield ( white bar absorb) based on damage dealt so this ability its a sustain/threat generation/dps/control, granted you need more skill and timing runes on the ground you have to actively switch targets to control multiple casters and it can be reliable but also you might fail to get a reset in time and have to use anything mentioned before it

  • devine toll this is a 1 min cd that shots 5 avenger shields (also know as thr omni kick) and well the ammount of damage, shield and control this ability provide its huge, not to mention it will keep shooting auto shields 3 times every 5 seconds and will give you holy power.

-repentance and turn evil: long duration cc with cast times its mainly for affix purposes.

On control side dh have more and its alot easier to pull off but paladin its not garbage its close to dh control level and its the closest so saying pally is bad is saying anything that is not dh its bad, pally just requires more skill/planing to pull off, still dh control is very strong.

Damage: both dh and pally have good damage and pally can use wings very often thanks to their build in cooldown reduction, so the on demand damage push and defensiveness is comparable to dh meta or fel devastation(, short duration meta)

Utility:

This is where the paladin shines far and above all tanks;

  • cleanse toxins: a poison and deseace dispell(, most dispels only do 1 thing and only monks and pallys get a double dispell for the price of 1)

  • battle rez: a very necessary and very limited tool for any content

  • regular rez: if healer dies regular rez saves alot of time and helps also during skip fails or when you clear a pack and healer is dead.

  • blessing of protection: a physical damage inmune that will drop threat of the targeted player it will also remove instantly all bleed effects.and make him inmune to that for the duration of it, super strong during BRH as last boss bleed has no duration its one of the 2 ONLY ways to remove the stacking bleed during phase 1.

-, blessing of spellwarding: this does.not drop threat and its a inmune magic ability it works the same as the previous mentioned buff and they share cooldown, regardless Super strong and unique.

  • blesing of freedom: a low cooldown root and slow removal that can be used on other players and will still be applied to you giving both speed and the root/slow removal and inmunity to such effects allowing to cheese mechanics and debuffs such 2nd boss on DHT ( removing branches and negating add spawn completely therefore increasing boss damage taken) or the plant debuff on on everbloom.

Blessing of sacrifice: an interesting external that transfer part of the damage to the paladin the catch is it has a low cd, long duration and you can transfer your whole hp pool but the effect will stop if hp becomes too low, as a tank its tricky to use as you need to know if using it will put you in danger but i can be paired with a defensive to off set this use often saves lifes!!

  • Auras: like dh you can provide a buff but you have 2 choices; devotion aura a 3% damage reduction, good when survival its a priority specially in high keys.

  • retribution aura: a 5% damage and healing increase, useful when you want more damage or have 2 paladins on the team( holy uses better devotion than any other spec)

You can switch between these auras.

  • lay on hands: this is a personal and a external that will top anyone on the party to 100% health 7 min cd most of the time i dont think i need to explain how good it is.

  • situational off heals: word of glory, shield if righteous and flash of light can be used to help heal the group.

Shield of righteous:, heal you and the group a % of max base hp

Flash of light when off combat to remove a bleed (thr ones need to be topped off)or help healer top off someone before pulling.

word of glory: this is sus, i mean it uses holy power and is meant for self sustsain after season one nerfs to it because was too strong to even skip adding a healer to the group; thier current state is use it on procs and mainly on yourself you can use on others sometimes but not very often because you want to keep your shield of the righteous up most of the time(demon spike equivalent), can be used but must be done wisely its not a trend to spam off heals but sometimes you can during boses ally focus like xavius feed on the weak.

Dh utility:

  • chaos brand: a 5% magic damage increase ( helps ret pallys and other non casters that deal magic damage too!)

  • consume magic: an offensive purge to consume enemy buffs, a rare skill that mages and shamans have but very rare also to use.

Utility conclusion: dh has not remotly close utility to what a paladin can do paladin players need to know alot to take advantage of such large kit but that is no reason to call it “garbage” as their power is above and beyond any other tank.

Active mitigation.

Before we go a little reminder:

Active mitigation is a way tanks deal with incoming damage without using cooldowns, during bfa launch they changed the way this work on many tanks including paladins making most of active mitigation be classified in 3 groups, and removing general % reduction from some tanks including paladins( shield of thr righteous used to be. % scaling dam reduction 30/40%)

  • dh falls into armour increase via demon spikes and self heal via fire damage, leech, souls consumed vis soul/cleave spirit bomb.

-passive mitigation: parry and dodge, hold on! Their parry its “sus” it works different this tier to thier set and seals interaction with parry so dh parry its good or to word it better its different than other clases its like a 1.5 or 2.0 parry to say the least!

-paladin active mitigation works around 3 things: -
armour increase via shield of the righteous.

  • self heal with word of glory procs(shield of the righteous uptime ends up mitigatingnfar more damage than wog heals it can be used for heal but is not a prio on mitigation rotation)
    -consacration: damage aoe that increase the paladin survival by ALOT difference between good and bad pallys is their positioning snd consacration movement snd re-casting with a low cooldown its easy to keep repositioning, while the paladin stands on it they gain % GENERAL DAMAGE REDUCTION and increase healing.

-shield of righteous healing: when you use it you heal yourself and the group a base hp%.

-blessed hammer prevents melee damage to an extent spins 3 times each and have 3 charges(check details or logs under prevented or healed damage the ammount its amazing)

-passive mitigation: block dodge and parry, one of the 2 tanks that can block

  • self shielding: avenger shield shields the pally based on damage done and this ability is used very often its not nearly as good as a ignore pain or ursoc fury shielding, but this shield its more of a bonus and less as a sustain ability.

Both mitigations are fairly balanced to each other as pally revolves about not taking damage and dh about healing it back this is a playstyle preference and pug perspective as both can carry groups on thier own.

Defensive cooldowns

Dh have a few only but can be cycled if the dh knows the damage type but even tho dh its oriented around physical damage defensive cooldowns.

-fiery brand: depending on talent choice can spread or be a single target defensive it will burn and enemy and make them deal 40% general less damage. If not talented into spreading its a bad defensive for trash but great for boses if talented for spread its a super solid defensive as they decreased the time needed for spread. On the gcd

-metamorphosis: this increases armour in a % and increase the dh max hp it also increase soul generation which yields in turn more dps and more healing and bonus the leech talent value will increase to double during meta state. It will not do much to magic damage and you will need to take it to the face and then heal it back it has a very long cooldown if talented into last resort it will activate meta/cheat death, a “ok/solid/its what we have” defensive not terrible but also has the weakness if not covering magic damage but good in general, bonus note the health increase will heal you if you are not max health. Off the gcd

Fel devastation: “fake meta” during the breath it will channel alot of damage(alot in tank standards) heal you a base value+ a %; it will heal more thanks it bring fire damage, leech being aoe damage, reduce its own cd, generate fury or shield you depending talents.

Thing is it will make you go meta for the duration and a few seconds after the channel and as stated meta give the dh good benefits, devastation its a 45 second CD that can be reduced when you cycle spells. On the gcd

Paladin defensive cooldowns

-devine shield: most powerfull defensive in the game a 3.5 min cooldown that can be used under ANY circunstance being cc or not making you 100% inmune to all damage debuffs and crowd control and removing all debuffs and crowd control effects but also taunting all enemies upon activation and when pally walks to new targets during the 8 second duration, spell cooldown reduced by spells. On the gcd

-guardian of the ancient kings: 50% general damage reduction 5 minute cd lowered by spells activates on cheat death, strong cd long cd useful regardless situation. Off the gcd

  • ardent defender: 20% general damage reduction with a cheat death mechanic low cooldown can be lowered by spell casting, this is used often for the damage reduction the cheat death its a bonus. Off the gcd

-eye of tyr: an aoe attack that debuff enemies making them deal less general damage to you on a % it has a 45 second cooldown easly cycleble between pulls and boss mechanics, needs to be used when enemies near you since its a debuff like firebrand can be comboed to any mitigation without causing an override (mitigation only applies the highest value so stacking defensives its a waste since only the strongest % spell will apply the damage reduction, except this is a debuff which is why this and brand can be comboed with other defensives). On the gcd

-sentinel/avenging wrath: wings for the people, increase healing,increase damage, increase max hp, gives damage reduction with short cooldown 2 minutes and its reduced by spell casting so roguthly 1 min cd, has high uptime and long duration, duration can be extended makes your execute usable on any target and makes your holy power generation increase, (just like meta fury soul generation increase). Off the gcd

Both tanks are more similar defensively than you think with their own difference of course, one focused on healing and the other on preventing damage with self healing to an certian extent.

One has very small pool of defensives and large CC options, the other have good CC options with large utility and large defensive cooldown options.

One excels at physical mitigation, the other mitigates everything.

Both have great aoe damage.

Gameplay: fury vs holy power, both are good resources you do not starve unlike runic power but paladin requires more class knowlege as it have different options on to who/how/why spend on those options(heal or mitigate), dh on other side its simple you heal with cleave or heal with bomb, either choice will heal so its a straight forward gameplay.

-pull planing: dh cc laydown its straightforward and effective requires less planing or knowlege to be efficient and its very strong.

Paladin requires to know how to switch for kicks, know when to hold silence refresh cast and to know which monster “camp spam silence” their cc its not as limited as other tanks but its definitely not lacking at all.

-pull planing (defensives) : both are topnotch and if played properly have infinite cycle defensives and damage, anyone who disagrees haven’t played the classes properly or enough(sounds rash but with their low cds and high uptimes its just how both classes work).

On a side note dh magic damage taken its concerning sometimes(gear and trinket selection make up for it) paladin outside of cds can be deadly if missplayed(tho he has enough to always have 1 up, trinket selection can help too like dh)

-haste and main stat scaling: great on both low cd on all generators and since their defensives are reduced on spell casting both scale greatly with secondary and main stats, paladin gets a bit edge here on his mastery but that edge is nearly the same. They both great lets say they on even grounds.

  • overall selfsustain/need of healer help/babysit,/need of externals frequently: on both yes/no/maybe/never, reason is depends on healer spec and if group is making mistakes, paladin generosity on wog’ing others, affixes, situation, dungeon, pull size, but here dh has a slight edge as their core mitigation is based on healing so they can work around not getting healed depending on situation, paladin can self heal and prevent alot of damage but when all is said and done paladin even played at good skill levels needs more of the healer than dh this is not an opinion its a fact, that does not mean pally cant solo pulls/boses or cant self sustain alot it just requires again knowledge of what happening and how to respond to said situation.

Ending

Dude this just my prot vdh side to side take, both specs are evenly matched both have their strong points and both have weak points, both can solo carry because self sustain and monster control boss solo kicks(sigil of silence can kick boses if used timedly and correctly), both have aoe natural power, cheat deaths, and on affix side pally can deal with every and all afixes while dh just cant do afflicted but besides that both can do all affix, both have strong mobility but dh wins over all tanks.

pally its the hardest tank to play because the expectation of what you are “supposed to do” its super high and it has many more keybinds than any tank but their potential and capacity its greater than any tank.

Demon hunter have a straightforward easy to play style that rewards their group with satisfying control and can carry lazy dps and bad healers without effort.

Both are great your class misconception might be because you havent done your dungeon/class homework and this is on tanks.

Ret vs havoc i can save you the read and tell you ret its better but if you want i can give you the side to side; even tho havoc its not bad just not better.

Hope this helped you or any reader (:

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season 1 prot paladin irreparably damaged peoples perspective on tanks and their capabilities and it shows

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Tanks are not unkillable gods not even in highkeys ppl just see 1 big pull and think the tank lived because theybpulled 80k hps ignoring the fact the healer pulled 100k-200k depeding on situstion.

And bdk hps argument its stupid they dont mitigate anything at sll so they just slef heal, hope to parry and self shield(only physical) but are ultra spiky and ultra oneshoteable words from pro players like dorki and other mdi tanks and healers, and words from other healers in m+ community the “worse tank” its dk.

“Dk its good until its not” when gear and dam outscales dks they die more often than any tank.

Tanks are super good and with their current design they can take alot of pain (lets not forget ursoc fury a far better version than blood shield) but the “tank gameplay” by no means its “lets pull all while i self sustain” its more.like “lets pull all while i hold them by either self sustains/selfheal/mitigate/control”

People just assume things based on wrong takes and mdi/top gamers gameplay without any context.

Ppl did again on mdi 4 dps 1 tank comps that doesnt mean healers sucks and are not necesary, that means “on low high keys 22s, the mdi levels” you can do huge pulls perfect kicks and kill everything on single cd rotations if everything goes right, people just watch noise news and not the full context as with those 4 dps 1 tank there was terrible wipes that bricked the key.

High risk high reward with an amazing level of route, planing player skill LOS and CC management and obvs myth gear.

But the ppl say " oh dh tanked with no heals dh godtier every other tank bad"

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this is also false but thatrs fine, people dont understand bdk in general so its common to find posts like this. bdk has such a filter like brew that the bad ones are very very very very visible and common. compare reholy to kyrasis and you’ll see a stark difference in bdk bulk with reholy using its kit to mastery and thus having no issues that the others say are prevalent

agreed people dont realize how much damage can be mitigated with proper stops. which is why i think its just sillyl to try and measure a tanks worth on a 5min deios tyranical run where everyone died. of course your gonna run out of mana like that given the mechanic he has that requires two people alive.

if allowed, when i read your long post above mine. can i send some fixes if i find any? also very well versed in dh especially reworked vdh cause i somewhat helped with the theory crafting behind it

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on this its not even my opinion it was dorkis when talking about tanks and while he was stating it he also said " another porblem of bdks is they die during their globals" and shows footage of how it happened.

we are talkin about world level tanks not just opinions of “bad takes” its about hours of play and theorycrafting doing the same pulls in “homework keys” and “push godlike keys”

dont take my word for shet talking bloods dks its about their core desing its unique but not made for pushing the absolute best content without defensives/externals hence why ppl use runetap on the top end even tho that talent its not a “great defensive” its sadly what you can get besides ice bound fortitude to enter a pull without exploding.

there are other options my point on the quote also means that some BDKs have a god complex and want to end all discussion because healing charts, which is an stupid and unrealistic argument, because the way the absorbs works.

regardless of the dk stuff the point of the tanks is not being inmortal gods, its being able to hold stuff long enough for their team to decimate the enemy, “by all means” thats where split into their diferent ways to deal with the same problem.

also send me any message i always like to theory craft or talk

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