Paladins aren't better than warriors, a thread!

Way too common of a sentiment. Also ‘paladins are better than priests’ is something that I see a lot. The misconception is equal parts understandable and disheartening, because I see too many people try to use the argument to justify their paladin characters curbstomping the competition and flexing on other classes.

This thread was inspired when I saw someone maintain that ‘Paladins are the basic Draenei footmen, and warriors are the screwups and adventurers who couldn’t cut it.’ I hold the person who made the argument in high respect, but I feel like their position was… a bit off. So I did as I often do. Overthink everything and make a post that may or may not start a faction debacle accidentally. Without further delay, my reasoning.

First thing I saw brought up in that same thread was the fact that the Draenei NPC guards of Shattrath city are warriors who use warrior abilities and don’t even show an inkling towards the Light. Fellas in question can be found here: https://www.wowhead.com/npc=19687/shattrath-city-peacekeeper

I can get where the notion that paladins are the best and better comes from. During the Second War they were an elite force combining the best of martial combat with the best of priestly studies. Why wouldn’t they be better than both warriors and priests?

Well, ultimately they’re kind of multiclassers in a way. A paladin has plenty of tricks and toys from both the Light wielding casters without really having the sophistication and complexity of spells. If a paladin and a priest competed in a game of pure spellcasting prowess, the priest will probably have the paladin outclassed. They simply don’t focus on the same principles.

Similar with warriors. Paladins are warriors with a lot of Light-based utility, but this doesn’t necessarily make them ‘better’ fighters. It just means they’re more suited for jobs where use of the Light is important, like resisting disease and purging locations. Warrior’s physical prowess is still going to be widely useful and most likely never be phased out, especially considering the high skill floor of becoming a paladin compared to the relatively low skill floor high skill ceiling nature of paladins.

I guess a good comparison would be Saurfang is not Turalyon is not Velen. Each of these three are some of the best characters in the setting with a bunch of rich depth to them, and some really cool feats under each of their belts. They’re all just different kinds of feats. No one is innately ‘better’ than the other, and the comparison is ultimately the difference between aircraft and boats. You can’t get rid of one in favor of the other, a lot of the time they rely on one another and synergize for the best effects.

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The minor issue with this thread is that it’s going on the basis that Turalyon is the strongest Paladin without any actual proof he is the strongest.

People -assume- he’s strongest just because he appeared from WC3 in Legion and has been in the army of light, not once being stated the strongest in game.

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That’s a funny way to spell Tirion.

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Real talk, Turalyon is just the one who came to mind because Tirion is a dead boi. Not so much that he’s the most powerful, more that he is a very recognizable entity in the game world :stuck_out_tongue:

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I made a comment on power levels in another thread, so I’ll echo my statements there in a concise way: getting hung up on who’s stronger than who is not going to lead to a fun time to either party in the context of roleplay, which is why I typically refer to dicerolls exclusively when determining the outcome for a PvP scenario.

I’m not disagreeing with your assertion, though. You’re totally right- generally speaking, the different classes have varied enough utility to be effective in different scenarios. That being said, when you refer to lore and try to compare relative strength, you get some crazy results, like some of my fellow Death Knights using how overpowered Saronite is in lore to essentially declare themselves nigh-invincible.

Which is funny, because if you really look at lore, mages/magically-inclined folk dab on literally everything since by-and-large you’re dead as a doornail before you get the chance to close the distance and whack them.

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Wow.

Wow.

Some appreciation for the paladin who mass rez’d us and won 1v1 against Arthas.

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I like to prefer the interpretation that power levels in game aren’t -too- far divorced from power levels in lore. EG: Warrior can probably charge and crush a squishy mage if they don’t have a backup plan and support. Of course you get demigods like Jaina Proudmoore in the mix and it all falls down, but we assume that the players are going to be a lot more balanced.

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So, I’m actually going to drop a bomb here that I know is going to trigger the blue bois…

Turylon we will never see Turlyon at his most powerful since his prime is long past, and Liadrin on an individual basis is more powerful than him in a straight fight.

Latter portion comes with the fact it’s becoming a tad clear Blizzard is starting to push more Horde characters back into being generally ‘powerful’; Thrall’s return being the more notable and the fact Shammy Thrall will be back in the near future.

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So to actually contribute something to the topic.

In broad terms I would think the a warrior’s mindset would be more practical than a Paladin’s. Using whatever means necessary to stay alive be that dirty fighting or improvised weapons to assure they leave the battlefield in one piece.

Where a Paladin would be more concerned with if they’re doing combat honorably and sparing their enemies if they surrender even if it means opening themselves up for a surprise attack from a feign surrender.

Game mechanics make Paladins (in general) to be some of the worse PvP hype beasts ever since they’re typically slimy eels with too many ‘get out of death free’ cards.

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You say that, but Saronite is wickedly overpowered. It’s like the Warcraft equivalent of Beskar from Star Wars, able to withstand blow-after-blow, and if it makes contact with a living person- say, if you punched them- they’ll be filled with the voices of Old Gods and go crazy.

How do you know that? Turalyon is much more in tune with the Light then Liadrin, and was (presumably) forced to fight countless demons to survive after being trapped Beyond the Dark Portal™.

Again, it all comes back to what I was saying. Trying to figure out who’s stronger when it’s so arbitrary is a wasted effort. It might make for a fun thought experiment, but it isn’t really practical, even when it comes to a PvP engagement.

There’s just going to be an argument.

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the big thing is that flashy magic is all well and good but in the nitty gritty of a fight it would be nigh unusable and highly variable in efficacy

the way i see it is that warriors specialise in the practicalities of a fight and are able to capitalise on them in a way thats only matched by rogues

a mages telltale pausing for breath before an incantation, a paladin rearing back their arm to materialise and throw a hammer, the flash of a death knights inscribed runes before the magic is unleashed; these are the moments that are accounted for, reacted to and capitalised on to create a opening and take over the fight from there

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Variable in efficacy for sure, but I would disagree that it’s nigh unusable. It all comes down to the individual encounter that is taking place. Sure, given the proper positional advantage, a Warrior could be all over a Mage, but if a Mage is quick enough with their somatic gestures and incantations to turn the Warrior into a block of ice, it’s game-set-match.

Honestly the fact that you said “variable” pretty much coincides with why I like dicerolls. There is always an element of variation when it comes to an engagement, and instead of trying to argue and compel the opponent to see things your way, I think dice make for a perfect equalizer.

I will say - let’s not get into whether Liadrin or Turalyon are better at paladin-ing. That’s just asking for a faction wank when really, I want this to be a CLASS POWER LEVEL WANK - I mean cough. But for real, I’d rather this avoid getting to standard levels of whether or not Liadrin is moral enough to have the light or yadda yadda.

Saronite is insanely OP, but I think the insanity effect is reliant on long-term exposure to it as opposed to instant contact. Keeps things somewhat equal.

And yeah, I think it all comes down to really small and variable details. A good dice system is one that rewards skill and strategy while also keeping things just wild enough to be interesting and fun.

I’ll tell you, Fizzwop. I’m the GM of a guild in a game that is obtuse as hell and only allows for a d1000, so I’ve had to exercise a lot of creativity in order to develop a sensible combat system. But it only ever applies to PvE. I think to reflect the hectic chaos of PvP, straight up “higher roll wins” is more appropriate, but that’s just my opinion.

True galaxy brain gamers settle their RP combat via a best of 3 game of Hearthstone.

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I’m personally working on a way to rip D&D 5e rules and use them in my guild system, levels 1-5. Because levels past that get way too wild to balance sometimes.

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I look at it this way. If warriors are supposed to be completely mundane, whose whole thing is pure skill at arms, then they were obviously be outclassed by paladins, whom can not only if not match then closely match their skill with weapons, with the addition of the ability to massively increase their strength, heal themselves in combat, protect themselves from harm, etc etc.

But that wouldn’t explain the abilities of WoW warriors, from Mountain Kings and their storm bolts/Avatar, to Blademasters and their ability to go invisible and make illusions of themselves.

So the simplest explanation is that A) warriors are a broad category that encompasses a whole swathe of styles, etc, and B) the warrior abilities we see in game on the class represent a form of internal magic not unlike Chi, just angrier.

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I mean warriors in their own right can leap 20 yards and cause the earth to shatter under their feet. Warriors are hardly mundane. They’re just superhuman levels of athletic might. Paladins dont’ seem to have as many raw physicality related powers. Paladins need the Light to bubble, Warriors are so in tune with their senses they can block and parry for a similar effect.

Stuff like that.

I would agree with Arkturas and Karnum. They seem to have the right of it, in my eyes.

Attempting to argue power levels boils down to an unsatisfying, ‘My dad can, in fact, beat up your dad’ discussion. There is not much to be gained from that. While Warcraft lore does not hold to many, if any, ‘hard standards’ as I imagine can be discussed at length by itself – I personally lean toward the storytelling being compelling rather than attempting to calculate who can, in fact, whoop whom’sts bottom-region.

A Paladin is doubtless a trained combatant in their race’s (or chosen style, I am certain there is plausible instance for different races training to match the martial styles of other races) martial methodology. A Warrior would presumably be a trained combatant as well. Warcraft is distinctly not analogous to our world, as even basic Humans are derived from Earthen constructs of a space-faring nigh-deity species of Order. Is it entirely inconceivable that a Dwarven warrior could shatter a warding of Holy Light from a Blood Elven paladin? Is it entirely inconceivable that the same Blood Elven Paladin could egg on the Dwarf until they charged, and promptly toss them six-ways-to-Sunday with a Hammer of Justice?

I would put forth that those arguments are less interesting than why the two are fighting, and what purpose that fight serves in their stories.

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I honestly agree whole heartedly there.