Paladin Problems that could use some work. : )

In Development Undermine(d) PTR Discussion
20

Feedback: Class Fantasy (Retribution)

Again, this will be a lengthy post, but I’ll try to keep each individual point pretty short as it’s a topic I’ve probably beat to death these last few patches, but with the new visual updates other Classes are getting, and with 11.1 really not looking like an exciting Patch for Paladins… (especially PvP Talents)

Figured its worth a mention.

I’m going to focus on Retribution here, but I do wish Hpal got better fantasy of Melee vs Caster, and Prot got better fantasy of Heavenly Strength, Spellbreaker Warglaives :eyes:, Holyfire vs Holy, etc… as well.

NOTE:
This is a post about Class Fantasy in light of the new animations, etc… that we’ve been seeing on other Classes.

Auras:

Problem #1: Auras are not Iconic Class abilities.

  • Feedback:
    • Say you removed Druid’s Travel form tomorrow, the community would implode… It’s an iconic Druid Form that’s been integrated into the class all these years.
    • Say you removed Crusader Aura tomorrow… the community probably wouldn’t even notice or hardly care.
    • Auras come and go.
  • Questions:
    • Why aren’t Auras ever expanded on to be more like a Druid Form?
    • Couldn’t all Auras grant 3% DR, a slight additional raid buff, while the majority of it be deticated to the Paladin?
      • Example:
        Crusader Aura
        • Reduces all damage taken by 3% and increases mounted movement speed by 20% for all allies within 40 yards.
        • In addition Crusade also increase your movement speed by x%.
    • We have:
      • Merciful Auras (Holy)
      • Lightforged Blessing
      • Judgment of Light
      • Golden Path
      • Lightbearer
        • Could any of these be merged and/or redesigned into a new Aura? (again, keeping that global 3% DR)
    • Could Lightbearer be expanded on to be an Aura Upgrade?
    • Could Luminescence [PvP Talent] be expanded on to be an Aura Upgrade?
    • Why do Battle Standards have Aura Graphics and Paladins don’t? LOL

Seals

Problem #1: Seals aren’t doubled down on and the Retribution Paladin Mastery (maybe all Paladins) feels like it could’ve been a “Seal Proc” instead of over burdening Player Animation with Exorcism graphic.

  • Feedback:
    • Seals have historically been a pretty iconic aspect to the Paladin Class Fantasy, giving unique Judgement debuffs, players buffs, animations, etc…
    • While progress has been made in the Paladin trees, it doesn’t feel great having things be labeled Seal of ________ only for it to be some random passive.
    • It doesn’t feel great having abilities that resemble Seals not feel like they’ve taken the extra step to add more depth to the class.
  • Questions:
    • Why didn’t Blizzard design Seal of the Crusader and Seal of Light (Judgement of Light) as actual Seals on a Choice node?
    • Would this be an interesting Choice Node that gives flexibility to add spec specific Seals within the Class Tree? (Seal of Wisdom for Holy, etc…)
    • Why do Shamans have Weapon Imbues, Rogues have Poisons, DKs have Runeforging, etc… but Seals are considered dated?
    • Why was Exorcism used as the Ret Mastery instead of a SoC proc type effect?
    • Is there any chance a Seal, or Seal Twisting could come back as a PvP Talent?

Blessings

Problem #1: We have no Offensive Blessings.

  • Feedback:
    • While the current Blessing do feel fun and impactful, in PvE, their use is pretty niche. If you’re running solo content, or content your group isn’t “struggling with” then BoSac and BoP’s value really goes down. They can easily be abilities you don’t press a single time…
  • Questions:
    • Is there any room to add more offensive Blessings to the Paladin Class?
    • If Blizzard could redesign Necrolord’s Banner (Warrior Covenant ability) as a Paladin’s Blessing of Might— what would that look like?
    • Is there any chance Blessing of Seasons is renamed, Split apart and pieces put into the Class Tree?
    • Is there any chance for a New PvP Talent Blessing, replacing one of the other Paladin’s Cooldowns such as Final Reckoning, ES, etc…
    • Is there any chance Divine Toll could be on a choice node with a Blessing?
      • Example: Convoke and Incarnation and how those talents function

Retribution Fantasy

Problem #1: Physical vs Holy vs Holystrike vs Radiant

Continuing the discussion from Undermine(d) Development Notes:

  • Feedback:
    • One of the interesting things this patch if Players didn’t catch it is, the DH Talent Any means necessary is getting removed. This is the talent that changes all DH abilities into Chaos Damage
    • While I assume most DH abilities were Chaos to begin with and this was probably dated… it begs the question has the philosophy for these types of talents changed?
  • Questions:
    • What is the significance to Paladins using 4 different schools of magic and how do you better communicate that?
    • Is there a better, more concise, theme of Holystrike vs Radiant builds you can offer Paladins that has rotational impact and meaning?
    • Why is Blades of Light called Blades of Light? What’s the significance to that and how do you better inform the average player of what Holystrike actually is?
      • Why does Holystrike not bypass BoP, etc…?
    • Burning Crusade changes Divine Storm and Consecration into a Radiant ability, how do you better inform the player that this is happening? What’s the significance to this?
      • Example is Defile vs Death and Decay
    • How do you better mix the Radiant and Holystrike into the Paladin Fantasy?
    • At what point does changing the function of an ability warrant a new spell icon, animation, etc…?

Problem #2: Crusading Strikes vs Templar Strikes, Blessed Champion

  • Feedback:
    • Templar Strikes doesn’t feel like it has a very fluid rotation, and similar to Hammer of Light, doesn’t feel like a 1-2 combo… but again this is mainly about Class Fantasy.
    • The fantasies feel like there’s a very big contradiction and don’t feel like they synergize very well
      • Appose to something like Templar Bash → Templar’s Strike, or w/e
  • Questions:
    • Why is Templar Strike, using “Slashes” in the Radiant school of magic? lol
      • While I understand Templar Strikes came first, there isn’t a lot of consistency and coherency within the Paladin Class.
    • Blades of Light causes the Holystrike aspect to kindof roll over into the Radiant Aspect and I assume the spell gets a bit sloppy at that point… how are these abilities better communicated to the player?
    • Is there much of a purpose to these spell modifiers or could the spell themselves just active Divine Arbiter and Searing Light, etc…?
    • Blessed Champion also doesn’t really feel like it’s communicated well. There’s no animation or altered spell effect like Overpower and Deadnaught.
      • Is there a better way to design this spell to indicate the Paladin is actually cleaving?

Problem #3: Blades of Justice

  • Feedback:
    • Blades of Justice feels like an unorganized spell.
      Blade of Justice
      • Improved Blades of Justice
      • Holy Blade
      • Expurgation
      • Blades of Vengeance
      • Consecrated Blade
  • Questions:
    • Why is Blades of Justice not in the Radiant School of Magic?
    • Why is it a Holyfire Blade that comes up out of the ground??
    • Improved Blades of Justice
      • Always have to ask, would this not be better as “Templar Strikes?” (Reimagined, with Crusader Strike getting Fires of Justice, etc…)
      • Two charges, deals XYZ ____ damage, combo, etc…
    • Holy Blade:
      • Why is Holy Blade not Exorcism?
      • Scourge Strike upgrades into Clawing Shadows with a new visual, icon, etc… Why not Holy Blade?
      • Why choose Exorcism for the Ret Mastery and not this?!!? :smiley:
    • Blades of Vengeance
      • Again, the fantasy purposes, is there any way to make this a more noticeable ability?
      • Could BoJ be replaced with a new AoE ability with all new animations, etc?
    • Similar to everything else, could Imp BoJ and Holy Blade be made into a more purposeful Radiant vs Holy (DoT vs Instant damage) playstyle?
    • Any chance Consecrated Blade could get a toggle on/off button?

Problem #4: Judgement feels like Holy Hammer

  • Feedback:
    • While not as bad as Prot cause Ret rarely uses Imp Judgement…with the abundance of Greater Judgement, mainly from Divine Toll, and the background feeling of Judgement of Justice and Judgement of Light (not being Seals). Judgement no longer feels like condemning the enemy with a debuff.
    • This is slightly made worse by the new Mastery that adds an addition Blast of Holy Energy.
  • Questions:
    • Does Blizzard feel like the identity of Judgement has kindof been washed out?
    • How do you bring back that feeling of actually “Judging a target” instead of just throwing some Holy looking Hammer at them? =/
    • With Greater judgement Debuff, Judgment of Light, judgement of Justice’s slow and speed increase, how do you put more emphasize on each of these effects?
    • Again, is Judgement of Light a bit dated and could that be Seal of Light?
    • Should Consecrated Ground and Judgement of Justice share a choice node?
    • Could the movement speed from Judgement of Justice be shifted into the class tree as Pursuit of Justice with Obduracy, Lead the Charge, etc…
    • How do you separate Divine Toll from Judgement so that there isn’t so much redundancy in a singular spell?
    • How do you separate Blessed Champion from Divine Toll?
    • Any chance for Judgement to get its old animation back to better distinguish the ability from Hammer of Wrath?

Problem #5: Templar’s Verdict vs Final Verdict vs Justicar’s Vengeance

  • Feedback:
    • While Final Verdict is a great ability, the short lifespan of Templar’s Verdict doesn’t feel all that great. This is only made worse by having Final Verdict vs JV not be an actual compelling choice.
    • You get Templar’s Verdict at level 10 and by level 14 or whatever, you unlock Final Verdict and it’s like oh, this is such a better ability why didn’t I just have this from the start?
    • For being our main Holy Power spender, FV vs JV doesn’t feel like something exciting to look forward to and build around, just another filler talent.
  • Questions:
    • For two expansions now… why is Justicar’s Vengeance designed how it is?
    • Is there a better Holy vs Holyfire/Radiant design that could be achieved here?
    • If these aren’t going to be compelling choices, why not just start Paladins with Final Verdict at level 10?
    • Could these abilities have different secondary effects?
    • Could these abilities be placed better in the tree?
    • Could these abilities at least have the same range and damage? lol
    • Is the animation Final Verdict + Jurisdiction conveying the spell properly?

Problem #6: Divine Storm

  • Feedback:
    • Similar to Blade of Justice, Divine Storm feels a bit overburden and unorganized.
      Divine Storm
      • Tempest of the Lightbringer
      • Inquisitor’s Ire
      • Holy Flames
      • Burning Crusade
      • Empyrean Power
      • Empyrean Legacy
    • In terms of Class Fantasy, Inquisitor’s Ire, Holy Flames, and Burning Crusade are the abilities of note that kindof don’t feel like they hold any weight.
    • Again giving an example, things like Brutal Slash feel more impactful and noticeable, it feels like an upgrade.
  • Questions:
    • Similar to everything here, is there a better Holy vs Holyfire theme that could be achieved with these talents?
    • Are these talents on appropriate choice nodes?
    • Could Inquisitor’s Ire or Holy Flames upgrade Divine Storm into a new ability, sharing a choice node with Tempest? (a good ability)
    • What’s the underlining significance to Burning Crusade changing DS into a Radiant ability?

Problem #7: Wake of Ashes… the most iconic Paladin ability to exist is somehow the odd one out, lol?

  • Feedback:
    • Wake of Ashes is no doubt the most iconic Retribution ability, and while it’s gotten a bit overburden, its still a very fun ability to press.
    • It does all the things you’d want it to do, but outside of this singular spell, the Ashbringer and Swords have kindof fallen to the wayside.
    • It doesn’t feel great being the only Fire-Sword effect in a long list of Holy Hammers.
    • It doesn’t feel great having the Seething Flames effect persist on your character while mashing the Hammer of Light button, or worse, overriding that animation.
      • Again, Hammer of Light is not a fun, fluid combo to experience and just compacts everything into that 2 GCD press. =/
    • The animation feels a bit too much like a “puff of smoke” then this righteous wave of Holy Fire.

  • Questions:

    • Do you think there could be a better balance between Holy and Holyfire spells Paladins have?
      • Example is obviously Shamans and their mixture of Fire, Ice, and Earth Totem
    • How do you balance the Swords vs Hammers when the Ashbringer exists?
      • Is the answer more of that Cosmetic Glyph/Skin?
    • As animators and VFX artists, is there more “weight” you could give to Wake of Ashes?

Problem #8: Execution Sentence and Final Reckoning

  • Feedback:
    • Again, as mentioned in the previous posts, these abilities don’t feel all that engaging to press.

  • Questions:

    • Any chance we see a new animation for Final Reckoning?
    • Could Final Reckoning call down a barrage of Holy Swords? or Holy Bolts?
    • Could Final Reckoning be pushed more towards a Holyfire type ability?
    • Could Execution Sentence get more player engagement?
      • Abom Limb, Bladestorm, Convoke, etc…
    • Any chance for PvP Talents to effect or change these abilities?
      • Death from Above, etc…

Problem #9: Hero Talents

  • Feedback:
    • Just to keep this short because I’ve already spoken to this above.
    • Dawnlights don’t feel noticeable for Paladins, appose to WoA empowering your TV and DS abilities. (IE: Diabloist Warlocks)
    • Sun’s Avatar doesn’t feel like a capstone talent, I don’t think anyone really plays around it much and it’s honestly felt like it’s fallen short for any sort of Hero Talent theme. =/
    • The Wake of Ashes + Seething Flames + Wings + Searing Light, etc… → Hammer of Light combo doesn’t feel fluid and feels like sensory overload
  • Questions:

HoTS:

  • Is there a chance Dawnlight could empower your Holy Power finishers, turning abilities into Holyfire effects?
  • Do you feel like Sun’s Avatar, or this Hero Talent tree at all, has had the impact you want?
    • Everything just feels like unnoticeable filler. =/

Templar:

  • How do you spread out that Wake of Ashes + Hammer of Light GCD clump?
  • How do you make that a better experience than the current button mash spam?
  • Should Hammer of Light replace WoA completely for a full “Templar - Physical/Holy” Paladin type feel?
  • Could Hammer of Light see a better animation? (Last Epoch’s Forge Guard)
  • Where’s that “Physical” aspect to Templar?
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