Paladin Problems that could use some work. : )

In Development Undermine(d) PTR Discussion
16

PvP Feedback

Recent Skillcap video:
https://youtu.be/i2ssCgUCnuM?t=887

(Sorry for the long post, was bored at the airport. :wink: )

Problem #1: Again, just to emphasize Ret Paladin’s lack of uniqueness/strength in PvP.

  • Feedback:
    • Outside of Ret/Warrior/Monk, it so rarely feels “annoying” to fight a Paladin. Ret’s weaknesses feel extremely exploitable, giving Ret one of the highest death counts in PvP.
    • This gameplay usually makes fights scripted in “Kill the Ret” and can lead to some extremely boring, repetitive gameplay. =/
    • Nerfing Healing Hands makes this feeling even worse as that defensive support role feels more diminished.
  • Questions:
    • What is the ultimate identity you want for Ret in PvP? Is the "Defensive, plate wearing, Hybrid Healer, living up to those expectations?
    • For example:
      • Judgements of the Pure was first stealth removed from Ret going into TWW, and now being removed from Holy, do you not want Paladins to be anti-disease/poison?
    • For example:
      • Unbound Freedom was nerfed to now be dispelable again, do you not want Paladins to be anti-snare/root? (It feels like Fury has more uptime than Ret without Freedom…)

Problem #2: Homogenization of the rest of the game, while kindof excluding Paladins. >.<

  • Feedback:
    • As more and more of the game gets homogenized for PvE reasons, it never really feels like Paladins are given tools to match that of other classes.
    • Everyone having a “Freedom” and “Bubble”
    • Death Charger being a version of Diving Steed.
    • Berserker Roar being a version of BoSanc.
    • Druids getting a version of “Beacon of Light”

Continuing the discussion from Undermine(d) Development Notes:

Continuing the discussion from Undermine(d) Development Notes:

  • Questions:
    • While the goal of this isn’t to homogenize the game even more, or play the victim, there feels like this underlining question of, where’s our “Fun Spells?”
    • Where’s Paladin’s version of:
      • Spell Reflect?
      • Intervene?
      • Rain from Above?
      • Smoke Bomb?
      • Ice Wall?
      • Thunderstorm?
      • Ring of Peace?
      • Lifegrip?
      • Deathgrip?
      • etc…
    • How do you make Paladins more engaging to play and fight against?

Recent Skillcap video:
https://youtu.be/i2ssCgUCnuM?t=887

Problem #3: Damage profile, lack of “win conditions” and lack of MS and Purge

  • Feedback:
    • Similar to what was posted above, Paladins seem to be moving more and more into this 6-8 second DPS Window.
      • Execution Sentence / Final Reckoning
      • Wake of Ashes + Truth’s Wake
      • Avenging Wrath + Radiant Glory + HoW
      • Divine Toll + Divine Resonance
      • Hammer of Light + Empyrean Hammer / Dawnlights
      • Divine Hammers (??)
  • Questions:
    • Ultimately this is a bit PvE oriented, but what’s the overall gameplay loop you’re trying to give Paladins?
    • Is there a concern that Paladin’s will become the new BM Hunter with just rotating through 4-5 cooldowns?
      • Does ES vs Divine Hammer, and FR vs Searing Light make more sense? (idk)
      • Why is Divine Hammer positioned in the Tree where it is and what do you plan to achieve with that gameplay?
    • Is there a better profile you can come up with for Paladins so we can choose a more “Holy Strike - Burst” vs a “Holyfire - DoT” playstyle?
      • Holyfire Templars??? :smiley:
    • Not to say this is bad for the overall game, as Burst can be toxic at times, but how does this lead Paladins to set up “win conditions?”
    • Paladins remain the only melee in the game without either an MS type effect or Purge, having to go through a Healer’s maximum output, how do you better balance this or ensure it’s still balanced for Paladins?

Problem #4: Dampening and how the value of an “off healer” goes down, while the value of an MS goes up.

  • Feedback:
    • This is just briefly to make note of this, but one of the downsides to playing a Class whose fantasy is “off healing,” it can really feel like the value you provide to a team becomes less and less then longer a match goes on.
  • Questions:
    • This obviously falls into that role of “what do you want Paladins to exceed at in PvP” and how does Blizzard better balance this?
    • Are there any lessons learned from Aug that you don’t want to happen to Paladins?
    • Or are there any lessons learned from Aug that you may want to replicate on Paladins?

Continuing the discussion from Undermine(d) Development Notes:

PvP Talent Feedback

Talent: Luminescence

  • “Luminescence (PvP Talent) has been redesigned – Lightbearer’s healing transfer is increased by up to 200% based on your current health. Lower health heals allies for more. Now available to Holy Paladin.”

  • Feedback:

    • This talent feels like it’s compensation for Healing Hands and if that’s so, it’s kindof concerning how it locks Paladins into their 3 talents.
  • Questions:
    • Is this a fun and interesting PvP Talent that mixes up gameplay, or is this just a Spell Modifier that should be baseline when zoning into PvP?
    • is this “forcing” paladins to spec into a PvP Talent just so their Class Fantasy is actually noticeable? >.>

Talent: Shinning Revelation

  • New PvP Talent: Shining Revelation – The light reveals all enemies in stealth or invisible to you while under the effects of Divine Shield. This effect lingers for 20 seconds after Divine Shield fades.
  • Feedback:
    • I actually like this for open world PvP, believe it or not. It’s not fun to be ganked by a rogue, force bubble then have them Cloak Vanish and run away. – I think we’ve all been there. :wink:
  • Questions:
    • But is this worthy of a PvP talent in its own?
    • 3 Min cooldown spectral sight?
    • Will this bypass Cloak and Vanish-- otherwise what’s the point?
    • Does this not highlight other problems within World of Warcraft regarding Stealth being a permanent buff, Arena Truesight Eyes, etc?
    • Could this be attached to another Talent or make Bubble do more?

Talent: Spreading the Word

  • Feedback:
    • Blessing of Spellward and Blessing of Sanctuary make Paladins pretty hard locked into PvP Talents, but it would be kindof cool if this talent rounded that whole fantasy off. Emphaizing in Blessings…
  • Questions:
    • Is there a unique buff Blizzard could add to this PvP Talent for Blessing of Spellwarding and Blessing of Sanctuary?
    • Is there more Blizzard could add to make this feel more universal like Battlefield Commander?

Ret PvP Talents

Talent: Aura of Reckoning

  • Feedback:
    • Aura of Reckoning being removed is one of the most concerning PvP Changes for Paladins. This is our defecto PvP Talent that Ret uses to push out more damage, more healing, and to break up the more scripted cooldown trading in PvP.
    • It’s never felt like a real Aura, like Devo or even Moonkin Aura, but it’s been vital to the Paladin class enough that it feels like it needs something big to compensate for its removal. =/
  • Questions:
    • Are there any plans to add something offensively to make up for this PvP Talent?
    • How does Ret break up that mold of trading cooldowns without this RNG?
    • Are there any plans to introduce a new Aura? Blessings? Seals? Etc…
    • Are there any plans to enhance existing cooldowns that feel underwhelming like ES, FR, or Divine Toll?

Talent: Lawbringer

  • Feedback:
    • Removing this is kindof w/e as it’s been nerfed into the ground and probably hard to balance given Judgement’s talents, but it does feel bad to lose something that had synergy with Divine Toll.
  • Questions:
    • Again, any love for the other Paladin cooldowns?

Talent: Blessing of Sanctuary

  • Feedback:
    • This talent is really strong, it’s fun to use, and does a good job of aiding paladins in expressing a skill cap. But as more and more classes gain AoE Anti-CC abilities… it’s starting to feel a bit dated at times.
  • Questions:
    • As more and more of the game gets homogenized, where do you see Paladins and their Single Target utility niche fitting in?
    • How do you compare BoSanc to Berserker Roar, Mass Dispel, Tremor Totem, Reverse Magic, Mass Invis, etc…

Talent: Ultimate Retribution

  • Feedback:
    • This feels dated ever since Paladins got a Battle Rez. It has very little purpose in any PvP situation.
  • Questions:
    • What’s “Retribution” about a battle rez? :sweat_smile:
    • Any chance this gets a redesign? lol

Holy PvP Talents:

Talent: Blessed Hands (Holy)

  • Feedback:
    • It’s interesting that this is being removed as Holy Paladins have had this long standing identity of being a “Cooldown Rotating Spec.”

  • Questions:

    • Obviously the Healing profile of Paladins is changing, and Paladins are gaining BoSpellwarding which is huge, but what does this mean for the identity of Paladins?
    • Will Paladins receive more anti-interrupt or anti-CC measures to ensure that they can get off more heals and don’t have to rely so much on cooldown rotating?
    • At least, is that on the radar?
    • With the removal of Blessed Hands, will BoP see a shorter cooldown baseline?

Talent: Blessing of Spellwarding (Holy)

  • Feedback:
    • This is awesome to be coming to Holy. As a Healer and fighting caster cleaves, it felt like BoP was just a wasted ability on my hot bar and that never felt fun.
  • Questions:
    • I’m excited to see how this works out, but the point of this is to give feedback and ask questions, do you feel like BoP and BoSW sharing a cooldown, reduces Paladin cooldowns too much?
      • Compared to like having 2 charges of Pain Suppression
    • Is there a world where Paladins have both Blessings and how would that play out?
    • Considering all Paladins will have access to BoSW again, is it worth taking another look at adding this to the Class Tree?
    • Is there a different version of BoP or BoSW you’d like to try out? Redesign? AoE? etc…

Talent: Darkest before Dawn

  • Feedback:
    • Darkest before Dawn, Unending Light, and Breaking Dawn feel as if they could merge.
  • Questions:
    • LoD is pretty underwhelming across the board, is there a chance these 3 talents could be revisited?

Talent: Divine Vision

  • Feedback:
    • Divine Vision, Divine Reach (Class Talent), and Unwavering Spirit feel as if they could
      merge.
    • Paladin Auras have been pretty underwhelming and them basically being our “Raid Buffs” kindof makes the range addition to Auras feel like a “hidden tax.”
  • Questions:
    • Similar to above, could these 3 talents be revisited?

Talent: Cleanse the Weak

  • Feedback:
    • This talent felt good for a few weeks, but the arms race of DoTs and Dispel mechanics has made this “Kiss/Curse” effect pretty inefficient.
    • The extra 4 seconds hardly feels worth, when every DoT class has somekind of backlash or DoTs are just instantly reapplied.
  • Questions:
    • Again, tying into everything a Paladin is supposed to be strong at, what role was Cleanse the Weak, Judgements of the Pure, A just Reward, Righteous Protection, etc… supposed to fill?
    • Do you want Paladins to be Anti DoT or at least Anti Disease and Poison, and if so, how do you make that work in modern WoW?
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