SoD took classes as they are and added lost of power. This means that really well designed classes like rogues, mages, and warriors just got insane. Paladins however are not really designed well in classic. In fact, all 3 trees are a disaster when compared to other classes. This has led to them feeling worthless compared to other classes in all content. Ret and Holy especially just don’t come close right now. In pvp most classes can global me and outside of a gimicky Reck bomb luck burst I cannot do the same. In pve people would rather me go “holy” so I can “tank” which just leads back to the broken trees in classic.
New runes can’t fix this. Ret needs significant mana reduction in costs and the talent trees need to be reorganized to make sense. Hit from prot to ret tree, consecrate from holy to prot, improved concentration aura from prot to holy are all examples.
I apologize for ranting, but I just feel weak in comparison atm.
don’t run reck in pvp, 31 points in ret is the way to go. ret damage in pvp is great, the only issue is mana cost of seals. seal up, hoj, divine storm+judgement, exo, and crusader strike all within hoj window will leave someone at 20-30% health if you don’t get any crits. I don’t want any damage buffs because it will come with inevitable tears and nerfs.
either buff crusader strike mana regen or reduce cost of seals, reapplying seal of command shouldn’t cost more than divine storm at level 40 EVEN BEING TALENTED INTO SEAL REDUCTION COST
31 point Ret in PvP is the only way to go and super fun. I even sometimes win 1v2s and 1v3s against super overconfident gank-happy horde, but I shine the most in a proper group setting with healers healing me and caster dps for me to act as a tanky frontline.
EDIT: I am curious to find out what Blizzard’s next buff to Ret Paladin is going to be.
Because two buffs in and we’re still the single worst dps class in the game. And when I say that, I mean our class only has one dps spec. At least Marksman Hunters and Frost Mages can just switch specs and be a top 3 dps spec easily. Even Enhancement Shamans are now in the top 5 dps specs ALONG with shaman’s other alternative dps spec, ele shaman.
But Ret continues to be the bottom of the barrel and Paladin has no other dps spec. Ret is all we’ve got. Not sure what they’ll do next.
Also you need to be using Rank 1 Seal of Command. Does the exact same thing as Rank 3 Seal of Command and only like 20 less damage than a Judgment of Command with Rank 3 Seal of Command up, but costs literally 1/3rd of the mana.
I really feel like the main issue with ret dmg is you go OOM too fast, although I haven’t done gnomer yet, I know people are running SoM but divine storm+seal of command+judgement+exo is like 323 mana spent in one rotation with crusader strike restoring like 81 or so mana. giving up AoW for mana battery rune just feels bad, plus not being able to cancel aura makes it dead in pvp
I do not go OOM in Gnomer and still manage orange parses. The solution is simple:
Start every boss fight by casting Seal of Wisdom into Judgment to put the Seal of Wisdom Debuff on the Boss. Then switch to Rank 1 Seal of Command for the rest of the fight.
You will not go oom because the low cost of Rank 1 Seal of Command combined with Crusader Strike’s mana regen plus the mana regen from having the Seal of Wisdom debuff on the boss (it refreshes every single white hit so you only have to do it at the start one time) will keep you at full mana no matter how many times you crit and get to use exorcism.
Rank 1 Seal of Command costs 65 mana and does a base 68-73 dmg on a Judgment of Command.
Rank 3 Seal of Command costs 140 mana and does a base 102-112 dmg on a Judgment of Command.
So my initial post wasn’t exact, but the difference is still noticeable and Rank 3 Seal of Command still just simply isn’t worth it. Sheath of Light actually makes Rank 3 Seal of Command even less worth it, because Sheath of Light makes a Judgment from Rank 1 slap just as much harder as a Judgment from Rank 3.
maaaaaaaan even if that is the case I really don’t think we should have to be down ranking seals like that, idk I just tested it on dudes in SM since I was logged out there and it seems like with sheath, judgement of command r1-r3 is like a 45-50 damage difference
I see several people commenting on how to do the most damage in ret and I get that. But we are not even comparable to other classes. Our best is laughable to rogues, warriors, mages, etc. The only class we can compete with in output are ranged hunters and healers.
In pvp anyone worth their salt will destroy us outside of bubble. Even warriors and rogues which are generally free chicken for hybrids do so much damage that we are usually dead in their opener without bubble up.
The bottom line here is this extreme min maxing of the rotation just to barely get accepted to the raid is exactly where we were in vanilla and classic.
Downranking Seals has been the strat since OG classic, just like downranking spells is the strat for most caster/healer classes.
I’m just telling you how I avoid going oom in both PvP and PvE. Sure, I still go oom in PvP sometimes, and I have to drink on trash pulls in Gnomer once in a while because I can’t use Seal of Wisdom on trash like I do on bosses.
But using Rank 3 Seal of Command makes you go oom twice as fast and the upside just isn’t there.
Especially in PvP where the meta includes multiple classes that can dispel our buffs and even mana drain us in the case of hunters and viper sting.
Being able to slap a Rank 1 Seal of Command on after a single Crusader Strike swing and still have enough mana left over for an exorcism or two despite potentially being oom otherwise is pretty crucial to winning otherwise unwinnable pvp fights.
No. I genuinely hoping that someone provides some setup or rotation that I don’t see, but my original point stands. Paladin’s class design and talent trees are horribly optimized in classic.
I agree that Ret shouldn’t just be allowed to languish simply because we have so much utility. I was semi-okay with it when Enhancement was right down there with us, because hey, at least us utility melee dps were in the dumpster together.
But why do Enhancement get top be 5th best dps and Ele get to be 3rd best dps when Ret is the only Paladin Spec that even can dps and we’re still bottom of the barrel?
At least from a Holy Paly perspective, yea I feel weak despite good gear. I was having fun until people got some gear phase 2 and how useless healing feels in PvP.
When I got all my gnome gear I was so excited for PvP because I was like damn imma be a real PvP healer with plate! Nope. It sucks. I’ve tried using blessing of light instead of other buffs, barely makes a diff. Sacred shield is so clunky to use and it’s not good enough to waste a GCD in PvP.
I’ve definitely killed a few rogues. With lucky art of war procs in 2 to3 global. Most of the rogues that beat me know how to reset the fight. They will try to get me to use BoF and bubble then reset the fight. While you blow ret out in PvE, we do seem to be harder for you to kill in PvP.