Paladin feels like dog water

i have to agree with your last sentence.

as i said before, if rets were so damn op and could one shot everyone without any kind of a counterplay, they would be climbing like crazy and every single high tier competitive team would made a setup to abuse and make rets work, but that isnt happening.

so yes the burst is high, but its not rets problem if people doesnt use defensives or try to cc and just eat the burst, kinda of a skill issue tbh, but welp.

just for reference, to people to disagree with this statement:

search savix video:


there he explains how the famous shaman, could’ve mitigated the damage, but instead the famous shaman, just rants about being “one shotted”.


I don’t think that’s healthy for any game, to be fair. =/

I agree, and I think more nerfs are yet to come, as I’ve said: Warrior, Ele, dragons, and Spriest and Lock will probably be next for tuning.

This has been the issue with Ret forever though. Season1 they are over tuned, and then nerfed and never recover because they don’t get a redesign. Hopefully we are finally at a point where Ret’s can get that redesign…

Historically Ret has been underperforming in PvP, so the 15-20 people who compete in AWC probably want to use the specs they’ve been playing for the past 18 years to compete with. (Besides Cdew)

That’s why you will usually hear the phrase “comfort picks” when watching tournaments.

Not really, not entirely. There are demonstrable psychological effect you can induce with a game that will lead your players to either keep playing or stop.
Either of could be called good/bad/toxic depending of your outlook but that’s not what I’m trying to say here.

Lets push the idea to the extreme.
Games that pit players against other players are inherently hard to manage.
Each win comes at the hand of another player defeat.
Something “fun” for someone can rapidly become something very unpleasant for the person receiving it.
Successful PVP games are the ones that are able to manage this.
Shooter are notoriously easier to manage because although there are sometimes different classes, they often have access to exactly the same offensive/defensive power in the form of guns and armor. It therefor comes down to skills and accuracy.

The epitome of toxicity in PVP game is to loose without the chance to interact or input any actions or regardless of them. You want your players to have a chance to REACT, in other words a “fair” amount of time to take actions.
So the closer to instant death you get with mechanics or design, the more unfair it seems and frustrating it gets.

For example lets say you have exactly 2 players playing a game, they enter a match and one player can kill the other in 2 or 3 sec at the start because its a burst class. It might feel good for him but if it happens to often, the second player might just stop playing because there is nothing to do about it.
Not a successful game, player 1 now has no one to play against.

Now let’s say they both use the same class, they are trading off wins now but matches are still going for 2-3 seconds. Might as well coin flip each time. What’s the point? There’s no outplay to be done you always just press the same 3-4 buttons each time to kill the other one first.
Not a successful game either, both players will tire of it pretty soon.

And we can deescalate this situation further and further until we get to a satisfactory middle ground between insta death match and immortal champions that can survive anything for eternity.

Anything that get to close to those 2 extremes can be objectively defines as bad/toxic design for PVP since the very idea behind them WILL drive player out of it by its sheer lack of interactivity and KILL the game.
Now obviously WoW is not there as a whole, far from it.
But this doesn’t mean that the philosophy behind burst is any less frustrating when it occurs in a game, and that you shouldn’t base a character around it unless you consciously create gaping weaknesses to offset it that makes it feel just as bad to play with than to be on the receiving end of the burst.
Even if this is just possible through a short telegraphed window, the core idea remains generally a bad one to keep if you’re gonna pit players against players.

EDIT: to be pedantic, actually comes from Warcraft 3 custom mode game

Dota is an interesting choice for an example, I don’t feel like they have the same relation to balance as other PVP game.
They seem to very much embrace imbalance in their characters as to give a sense that each champion is broken in it’s own way.
While the more conservative and widespread approach is a bit different.

I would personally compare Ret damage profile with champions like Master Yi or Tryndamere in League of Legend.

While true that they can absolutely steamroll games you’ll rarely see them, if ever, in any high level competition because, as you elegantly point out for Ret…

…those champions, like Ret, are noobstompers. And they’ll never be anything else unless they shed that damage profile.
Because, as your comment implies, any competent PVP player will correctly exploit the glaring weakness the “burst” identity come with and prevent the class from seeing much play in competitive events and gamemode unless the damage is such that it trumps the counterplay available.

but that is why we now have things like cc and defensive cooldowns not to mention 2 other players.

I would consider it the most balanced game available right now.

idk much about dota I’m assuming since league is a copy of dota it would be most similar. but Sven in dota 2 Is literally just ret paladin. has a stun, has a movement ability, and his ult is basically wings.

The meta game hasn’t favored them in a number of years that is correct, but thats not due to them being bad in fact past 30 min they are blatently op, but games end now at like 20-25 min and uh yeah.

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I played it with WoA instead of Decree, and no Aura of Reckoning and holy crap it is terrible. You still pretty much have all the same ret pally weaknesses like being easily kited but now you also hit like a wet noodle in max gear (I’m 423 with 2 set, use 1 honor ring for extra mastery).

I managed to out damage the Spriest in my last shuffle only because he was trained in most every match.

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I think it’s more by removing one of the negative core design principles that Ret has suffered from that prevents it being a healthy class in both PvP and PvE it allows the spec to be redesigned without continuing to enforce it.

Think about it like a building, if the foundation is faulty there is no point in continuing to try and rebuild the property on those poor foundations.
It’s more work and more detrimental in the short term, but sometimes you just have to take apart and re-lay the foundations if you ever want to produce a sustainable product.

Aren’t both of those sustained damage dealers though? (Unless they’ve reworked them of course)
I agree in the terms of being one dimensional.
But Ret damage profile would be Yi if he had to kill the opponent in a single Q I feel.
On top of that both Yi and Trynd are incredibly more mobile than Ret.

Idk how much you guys know about Dota, I know more Dota then LoL personally, but to me, Sven is more like an Arms warrior. (Troll Warlord being like Fury) Sven hits hard, but can be kited moderately well.

Paladins have historically felt like Omniknight. Decent hitting, high utility support type until Legion when most of that was stripped away and we have this new abomination of a Paladin design.

We’re in this weird state of trying to make Omniknight “work” when we should be changed to be more like Dawnbreaker-- a more modern style of a “Knight.”

I often use Dota as a reference when talking to my friends, who all play it as well, and you can actually see a huge dynamic shift of the “support roles.” Most old support classes have been replace by the newer, more mobile classes being introduced and that’s felt like what’s happening on WoW.

Same thing in HotS, Valla and Raynor were eclipsed by Hanzo and Genji when introduced, etc…

Well the power curve is different in league, there are champions with big CD ultimates but the power is usually more in your item advantage.
I feel we’re leaning way too much into it now though XD
All I meant to say is that those champions, if allowed to have uptime on the other team, will mostly likely kill them in 3 to 4 hits tops if they didn’t build tanky items, often leaving the receiving player with the sense that they didn’t get much time to react especially when 3-4 attack can happen in the span of 2 seconds.
But they stopped making those type of champion because they were to hard to balance.
A melee ADC should hit very hard since he doesn’t have the safety of a range but at the same time if all they need is 1 auto to kill someone it’s kind of too much too.
So you hinder their mobility, you make them squishy, you make them prone to kiting and CC.
They will quite often have non-disruptive or low disruptive abilities meaning that their abilities usually won’t "affect other players. They won’t stun, disrupt, displace other players but instead enhance their own character.

It’s more to illustrate that giving “big damage” as an identity will always come with a weakness so glaring that only bad player will miss out on using it.
Ultimately making the class/champion uninteresting to play in high level of PVP because its just a gimmick.

Ret has that problem. And unless it is removed and replaced, it will never get past it.


Yeah I totally agree to that, it’s a very one dimensional gameplay loop.

I think it was just a bit of confusion by your use of damage profile, which I typically think of as your burst/sustained/direct/rot etc type of differentiation.

But yeah, it’s too all or nothing. Easy to shut down, but oppressive if you can’t/don’t know how.

Like Ret suffers from having really good cooldowns with extremely long cds, topped with being extremely easy to shut down assuming the opponent has the right tools available.
100% movespeed is ridiculously strong, but 4s is abysmal, immunity also extremely strong but 4+min cd plus it also has the ability to be instantly dispelled, AW is extremely strong but the paladin in general is very easy to control and it’s easy to avoid.

We need more consistency and less binary interactions both for PvP and PvE.
Honestly whilst a decent nerf to Ret PvE, I wouldn’t be too disappointed if the instigated the reduced damage during bubble if it would allow us to get the proper tools we need to perform outside of wings, bubble, and horse.

Honestly though I feel horse just has to go in general.


No one and I mean no one likes this ability either.


Idk why people love gimmick abilities so much, they’re blind. That whole Decree/Final Reck combo is just all your damage slammed into those abilities. Those being available makes the rest of the spec absolutely have to be under-tuned. No thanks, a meaningful rotation is much more fun and engaging.

I’d rather 70% of my Ret damage to be from my core Ret abilities, not have the core Ret abilities there just for show. Ret rotation essentially becomes Final Reck/Decree, everything else doesn’t matter. Its like the only time you enjoy playing Ret is within 2-3 globals of gimmicks and thats trash. When they introduced the judgement modifier they had to ninja nerf HP spenders by X% to take into account the 25% modifier. People probably think “hell yeah this is cool”. They probably never made it a fair balance or adjusted it correctly. Idk where Rets damage profiles got messed up but WoD was the last time I felt like Rets rotation was meaningful, which was before we got ability bloated by “borrowed power” abilities that are now perm.


but if you want 70% of the ret damage to come from core abilities, then you would need to change the class as a whole, like getting rid of holy power for instance.

we will never have a hp generator that will out dps a expender (guess the only time this was possible was with 4p shadowlands tier with a load of wake of ashes reset procs)

expenders are supposed to hit hard, they are supposed to be the hardest hitting ability of the class, cause you need 3 holy powers for that, its not a 15s cd random skill that do 200k damage without any preparation

ret will never be “balanced”, or “changed” from burst to sustain, cause they fixed the idea that ret hits like a wet noodle without wings, and our whole damage comes from the old 1min burst (es + fr, that i hated so much, horrible design), and now from pretty much wings + fr.

unfortunately, they will not revamp the trees, they will not change how the class currently works, the only thing that they will do is nerf what they think its over the marks.

and as i said, as a 12 year old ret main, its just what they do, we can open a 20000 replies thread here, and they will not bother to read one phrase, so yeah, we can discuss, but we are pretty much wasting our time

things will be the same, and the only thing they will probably do, at least for pvp is to make the generators that amount like 5% of our total damage, do like 10% more damage, the same treatment they do to some classes on pve, instead of fixing the real problems, or giving some interesting stuff on the skill trees (cause oh man, so hard to split one baseline skill in 3 different nodes just to fill the squares, cause they have no new ideas to make the class at least appealing lmao)

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I wish they would just remove PVP from the game, WoW’s PVP is literally the worst of any MMO, and they constantly use the pvp balance as an excuse to ruin Ret in PVE.

They even have separate PVP rules, it’s basically a separate game, And still, the PVP concerns gets the spec ruined in PVE EVERY TIME. Yet somehow, Demon Hunters are fine to go around 1shotting people with The Hunt, and still be a god in PVE as well. Why is that?

Anyway, vote with your money. Hit the cancel subscription button, and in the comments let them know you don’t feel like waiting until 10.1 for a revamp that should have happened during Dragonflight’s Alpha.


Im okay with HP spenders hitting harder than builders, its smooth with a rotation and effective every 3 or so globals. Rather than doing nothing meaningful until we get our 2-4 long CDs. TV as a spender for big damage and something like Catas Exorcism procs to have a fun ability weaved in the rotation.

But yeah, I think we’re on the same page in a sense. X% HP damage is lazy design. The talent trees are cool while leveling because you get to work towards a path, but ultimately endgame your spec was designed one way and thats everything into CDs, theres no real option.

I played a solo the other day where a Ret 1 shot me through Ignore Pain in my Warrior. So the potential is still there.

PvP is one of their biggest draws. Sorry you don’t like, but no other game I know of has better PvP than WoW. When I step into the arena I feel like I’m completely in control of the outcome and I like that.

I think it was more regarding burst phases than simply builders vs spenders.
Currently a massive amount of the spec’s potential is locked behind dps cooldown windows every 1-2 minutes, so outside of that, even your spenders feel very underwhelming.

So I believe they were more regarding smoothing out the difference between cooldown damage and non-cooldown damage (which is honestly very much an issue across the board).
Which is simply a case of reducing the effect of those burst windows, and then buffing everything that fits within the standard rotation to compensate.

However in regards to your interpretation before, it’s honestly not really that hard to increase the value of builders whilst still (rightfully) maintaining the spenders comparative strength, and the answer lies with frequency.

Instead of buffing the builders and nerfing the spenders to compensate you simply ensure that your spenders whilst still meaningful are simply less prolific.
We’re talking theoretical here so please don’t persecute me by taking these as an opinion, it’s just how it would be looked at in such a situation.

So do we need Blade of Justice to generate 2 HP? Probably not, it has other modifiers, that identify it as a stronger/different ability to CS.
Do we need HP generation on Consecration? Probably not necessary.
Heck does WoA even need to be 3 HP in a world where BoJ is reduced to 1 HP? Not necessarily.

So any number of changes like that could be used to modify the Holy Power generation rate to be appropriate for however powerful you wanted your spenders to be.

Would I personally recommend something like that? Not really, and it definitely opens up other implications throughout the Ret design.
But it is a way it can be done.

Personally though I’m of a mind that it’s not necessarily builder vs spender damage that is the issue, but stimply inside cooldowns vs outside of cooldowns.
In which case should the former be reduced, both builders and spenders can be appropriately be buffed for role outside of the cooldown window and thus feel more impactful.

Didn’t they compensate us for nerfing 3 of our abilities by giving CS 80% damage buff or something, even though CS is just a tickle…

Getting a rework in 10.0.7

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Good thing Blizzard is going to do a rework for ret pallys soon in 10.0.7.

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