Paladin - Feedback PTR

WoW Classic Season of Discovery
1

Consecration - change to baseline

Precision - change to melee and spell hit

Reckoning - change to % on hit proc same as TBC

One-handed spec- change to 5% overall dmg while equipping 1h same as TBC

Avenging Wrath - Undispellable

Imp Sanctuary - Terrible rune, redesign

Righteous Vengeance - Will never be used needs a healing option for this slot. 50% of your + heading turns into spell damage.

Leg Slot- Just remove Divine Sacrifice nobody every picks it and add back Horn of Lordaeron and make it scale with imp might. Or else alliance won’t have a grace of air equivalent buff.

Malleable Protection - Good rune but will never compete with sheath

Greater Blessings - Should scale with the book and be increased to 30 min duration

Shield of Righteousness- Way to bland, it need some extra component added to it like block/damage reduction/crit chance/mana return.

Hammer of the Righteous - doesn’t need a nerf, maybe add 4x dps to first hit and 2x to the cleave.

Tier1 6pc- make 2nd seal persist for longer, 8-10 sec so that rotation doesn’t feel too punishing and clunky. Otherwise just change it…

6 Likes
2

seconded on all of this

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3

yes please!

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4

Get rid of the Deep Wounds rune, replace it with the t1 6set effect.

This new rune should make all Seals 10sec, allow 2 seals at once, and Judgement no longer eats the seal. As it currently stands, Judgement will be last prio as it would take 2 GCD’s to get our seals back online.

Also, a new rune/libram should give us a little 0.5sec buff when activating a seal to increase seal dmg by 20%. This would make twisting still beneficial, but not vital.

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5

also if the datamined tier set stats are correct, that’s a ridiculously low amount of strength on most of the pieces lmao

6

The protection stuff looks pretty good. I’m not sure about sheath vs other options… the push to put so much into block value and blocking I really like… gonna be hard to overcome how much we get from spell power. This feels like a good start to making tradeoff decisions.

I haven’t played Holy beyond 5 mans, but I think the consecrate rune is awesome if it works for all friendlies in the ground effect. I don’t especially like the healing-turret playstyle given how many fights demand short-notice movement mechanics (blood pool, holy nova, sleep puddle, acid rain), and the ground effect heal is a cool opportunity to play strategically and stay mobile during the fight for good reasons.

For retribution, I feel like it’s just a miss thematically and playstyle wise.

Righteous Vengeance just isn’t in the same plane as Vindication. The stat multiplier and debuff effect are just too powerful and scale too hard compared to a 30% dot on some of our holy damage. And I would say don’t bother balancing it because it’s just a little math exercise to figure out which is better… there’s no playstyle difference between them. You wouldn’t do anything differently in any spec if you had one or the other (meaning full ret or if it maths out that 7/31/13 prot is best). You just hit the monsters with your abilities and you get one or the other effect. Not interesting.

The 6 piece retribution bonus is just… unfortunate. If we don’t like seal twisting because we need a swing timer to hit that 400ms window each swing to use a GCD then why would we like managing 2 GCDs every other swing? seal1, seal2, hit, exo, DS, hit+judge, seal1, seal2, hit… etc. Perhaps it’s a damage increase, but for annoying complexity AND flirts with what I would really want…

I find it disappointing that all of our runes and what we’ve seen for the set bonuses focus on personal power rather than team power. We have a real opportunity to get the class/spec identity nailed down. Phases 1-3 have given us loads of tools to load up on holy damage - excellent, we’re absolutely a spell&sword class! Now finish it out with focusing on our unique mechanics of seal/judge and lore-role as a force multiplier!

What if our retribution back rune and/or 6-piece set gave party stats instead of personal stats? Or what if we got some stacking bonus for Judgement that culminated in a group buff?

Just to spitball an idea, Judgement gives a X% str/haste/agi/whatever buff that stacks up to 5 times; at 5 stacks you and your party are enveloped in holy fire, dealing Y holy damage to enemies around you every 3s OR at 5 stacks, consume all stacks and grant your party members your 5-stack bonus.

To me, yes the Paladin (especially retribution) is a spell & sword warrior but the unique fantasy/identity is that they’re a force multiplier. I played Horde in Vanilla and so clearly felt this as the shaman identity - totems are an externalized way to show that. Paladin doesn’t feel that way at this moment. Kings is just a hunter thing now. Threat is laughable given how high tank dps/threat is. And so much emphasis is on personal power in our runes to keep up on the parses… that identity as the team amplifier feels missing.

Thank you for listening to my TED talk…

7

If they don’t end up making Wild Strikes raidwide, they should add a WS rune for Sanctity Aura.

2 Likes
8

I dont trust datamined stat values ever since Whisper was datamined as a 205 top end and came out as a like 174 top end.

9

SP has +heal. Probably not finished yet.

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Overall
-Quality of Life Book for Greater Blessings to increase duration or have the old book also increase their duration.
-Avenging Wrath: Non dispellable, currently at 3min cd should be lowered to 2.
-Aura Mastery: Needs to also allow your aura’s to be raid wide and have an additional aura active at the same time.
-Purifying Power/Imp Hammer of Wrath: One or the other needs to be baseline.
-Precision needs to affect all Hit (Spell/melee)

Ret:
-Righteous Vengeance/Vindicator: These need to be on separate slots, in addition given Vindication doesnt work on bosses this needs to be addressed properly for Vindicator for bug reasons.
-2pc T1: Needs to not just be Wis or Light but any Judgment you do will place Crusader on the target.
-4pc T1: Could also affect Vengeance Duration and/or increase it by a small amount.
-6pc T1: This really sounds like something that should be a quality of life book down the road. The 6pc could then be altered if that is the case to increasing Seal of Command proc chance and Judgment damage.
-Divine Storm: Needs to be holy damage.
-Crusader Strike: Mana return may need a buff, depends on how mana is by next phase at end game.

Prot
-Reckoning: There needs to be a rune to interact with this given the nature of Def cap for non crittable is going to be a thing. This particular rune could interact as a “Grand Crusader” proc and not only give the extra swing but reset the CD on Avenger’s Shield.
-Holy Shield: Should be also allowed to block spells.
-6pc T1: Sounds also like something that could be a quality of life book/rune later on down the road.

Holy
-Hallowed Ground: Should reduce the mana cost from Consecration as well or just have it replace Consecration all together to create a large AoE overtime heal that affects everyone just no longer deals damage.
-Light of Dawn: Should potentially be added as a rune in some form.
-4pc T1: Should also give additional Crit chance to Holy Shock.

1 Like
11

I disagree here. RV and Vind feel like PvE/PvP respectively. Vindication is a dead talent in PvE after you get to 60 anyway. PvE Ret wont even take it as a filler. If RV rolls (like ignite) that makes it a pretty solid pick for PvE.

1 Like
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Oh i get that, its just if they are going to have Vindicator there and its giving you 15% more Strength then it really just became a moot thing between the two. Also those slots have nothing for Holy what so ever. Its Shield of the Righteous, RV and Vind and thats it :V so gotta move something in there for Holy and either RV or Vind out.

Because making a rune specifically and only for PvP seems “counter productive” per se to the thing as a whole.

(Also not sure why the post you quoted was from me but for some damn reason used the wrong character and wont let me edit it to be from this one so i apologize for any confusion.)

MY BAD its even stronger: 5% per talent (15%) Str/Agi/AP buff. Yea why wouldnt you take it.

Again, i understand the sentiment but thats a massive buff.

13

if bosses are immune to vindication debuff, then sure. if it’s able to debuff them, or if the effect will still proc on us, vindicator is still a DPS increase over RV

1 Like
14

I made an independent post about this, but I’ll put it here too:

“Hallowed Ground” is a bit of a miss:

(1) Consecrate costs a ton of mana, and although the healing ticks of this rune can crit, those crits don’t refund mana like other paladin heals.

(2) This rune requires you to not only be in melee range but to also be in a melee group in order to be effective; this will probably cause friction in Wild Strikes groups and will take you out of groups that would benefit your healing power/crit.

This rune seems to promote the “melee healer” aesthetic of a holy paladin, which is a cool aesthetic; unfortunately, very few other things about paladins’ healing spells currently align with this aesthetic.

My proposal: This rune should replace Consecrate with Light’s Hammer (from future expansions): You target an ally; it “tosses” a hammer to them; the hammer deals damage to all enemies around that ally and heals their nearby party members. It could even move with that ally if you want to lean into the idea of “tossing” them a hammer or “imbuing” their current weapon with light.

Alternatively, if the idea is simply to give holy paladins some AoE healing, you could take the very simple-but-effective route and make this rune cause Holy Light and Flash of Light to splash for 10% of their healing to the target’s nearby party members.

2 Likes
15

Very much so. I was thinking Light’s Hammer ngl but just didnt write it down.

As far as the “Melee Holy” goes the concept is fun and “doable” because you weave in Crusader Srikes to get mana back and stay with the tank so they get that Imp Devo Aura. However as fun as Melee Healer is there are not enough runes at this moment to even enable the set up.

So keeping it in line and simple to the “whole” having the Hallowed Ground be a “Light’s Hammer” is not a bad idea what so ever. But if they gonna keep it like that then there needs to be talk about redesign on some runes because you will wanna be in the tank group mainly so you can keep those tanks better padded/situated via stuff like this as well.

16

From the perspective of a Prot paladin:

Threat is going to be a huge limiting factor for paladins in P4 with the current kit. We just dont do enough TPS to keep up with everyone else. With the changes to Art of War we need abilities that build threat quickly.

Hammer of the Righteous, is a bit of a noodle atm, would have loved to see this changed to 3x dmg instead of 2x (Or not changed at all). I dont believe the additional threat is in yet cause it seems to do nothing in terms of generating threat. DMG scales with AP.

Shield of the Righteous is cool, but also doesnt scale with anything but BV, let it scale with AP or SP please so it isnt so weak. I cant build threat with these water guns you’ve provided blizz!

Aegis, I really like the redesign of this rune. It gives paladins some agency in proccing redoubt which is great. I still believe that Block Value as a stat is too heavily weighted on gear.

Example: the Wailing Berserkers chest piece Vs Banished Martyr chest piece tier pieces from ST. The DPS version has 21 Str, 14 Agi, 12 Stam, the Prot version has 5 Str, 9 Agi, 18 Stam and 24 BV. There is no world where removing 15 stats is worth 24 BV. Ive posted this before on the forums and I’ll say it again, please decrease the stat weight for block value. In no world should I give up 15 stats, for 24 BV, against bosses that hit for THOUSANDS.

Art of War, man this one is a bit of a double edged sword. Exo spam was not incredibly interesting gameplay wise, but it allowed for truly obscene amounts of threat generation. The current additions and changes are a bit too lackluster to cover for the loss of Exo spam. If paladins want to compete with any of the other tanks (currently from my experience ALL tanks have much higher TPS than paladins) they need a bit more power.

Would love to see Art of War changed to one of the following:

  1. Melee critical strikes cause you to gain an extra attack. Reduce exorcism cost by 80% – Since reckoning is dead for prot paladins anyways since we can’t be crit, move it to a rune. Also helps with the lack of WF on Alliance side, also Ret would LOVE this.
  2. Melee critical strikes reduce the CD of Exorcism by 5 seconds – just splitting the difference between how it was and how it is.
  3. Your melee critical strikes reduce the CD of Exorcism, Avengers shield, and all abilities that give you Forebearance by 1 second. – Lets use wings more consistently without being overtuned, really opens up the whole kit to more use not just exorcism.

Consecration - change to baseline

Would be incredibly nice to not have to invest 20% of my talent points just for the one ability. But might be to un-vanilla to actually happen.

Precision - change to melee and spell hit

Not sure this is necessary considering we get the 6% hit from the ring rune.

Reckoning - change to % on hit proc same as TBC

I think for both reckoning and redoubt this should be the case. Having to take redoubt to use Aegis, and needing Aegis to actually proc redoubt is silly.

One-handed spec- change to 5% overall dmg while equipping 1h same as TBC

We’re getting into obscure territory here where suddenly we’re asking for a whole talent tree rework (which would be great!) but I dont think this level of change is feasible.

Avenging Wrath - Undispellable

Unpopular opinion, but I enjoy some classes having options to play around this.

Imp Sanctuary - Terrible rune, redesign

This rune has its purpose for soloing content, but currently in raid situations is most definitely not something anyone will take. It would need to add additional threat, increased block value or mana regen to be usable in raid situations.

Malleable Protection - Good rune but will never compete with sheath

I want this desperately as a prot paladin, we have very few real defensive CD’s, but I will never take it because I can never pass up sheath. Losing sheath pretty much means I lose a huge % of my threat generation. Though with no more exo spam maybe SP isnt as valuable anymore…

Greater Blessings - Should scale with the book and be increased to 30 min duration

Yes

Shield of Righteousness- Way to bland it need some extra component added to it, like block/damage reduction/crit chance.

Agreed, it doesnt do enough as is. Currently doesnt scale with SP or AP, would love to see it have the same spell scaling as exorcism in order to make it more viable, or if blizz doesnt want to increase the dmg make it at least do increased threat.

Conclusion: Really like the rework. Prot Paladin FEELS like a tank now, and not just a ret paladin with a shield. With some minor changes I think Paladin could compete with some of the other tanks in raids. The hole left by AoW being changed in our rotation is glaring and needs to be addressed, but overall I think this was many solid steps in the right direction.

edit: corrections

1 Like
17

SHEEEEESH dude, feel like this would all be crazier than just having wings be undispellable lmao. it already gives forebearance, dispel/purge has no CD, and we have no purge protection in the spec

  • Melee critical strikes reduce the CD of Exorcism by 5 seconds – just splitting the difference between how it was and how it is.

this does seem fine though, maybe only with 1h though? not sure how this wouldn’t bring Ret back to fast weapon exo spam, only this time you’d additionally be managing reapplying a second seal every 6 sec

18

Blizzard is so bad and incompetent at Paladins man. They clearly don’t play one.

ALSO OUR TIER 1 SET BONUS TO SEAL TWISTING WON’T WORK BECAUSE WE WILL RUN OUT OF MANA! HELOOOOOOO!

19

not only will it be a speedrun to OOMing but it’ll be mad annoying spending 2 GCDs to manage both seals after judgement, or conversely even without judging, every 6 seconds so your weapon swing has both seals active

literally spend half the time of the duration that both seals are active (6 seconds) applying 2 seals after judgement lmao 1.5 GCDx2=3 sec

SO BAD

20

I agree, they should just make it “your next seal proc” or 2 procs since 6 seconds only means you’ll get 1 anyway.