It’s a bs exploit that shouldn’t be in the game to begin with and you want it buffed? I am so freaking sick of exploits after classic. Stay there and cheat… Why ruin tbc too? Where does it end?
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Then we want seal of blood back lol
flagged as trolling. moving on.
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Yes, the original version that appeared on the ptr is the equivalent of a first draft.
It got updated.
It wasn’t the final implementation of it that went live.
The original PTR version was never a live state of the game, you can’t use it as evidence that is how it is “supposed” to work, because the entire point of the PTR is to adjust new things like that to a state the devs are happy with.
I’m not asking for trust. This isn’t an argument about trust.
What makes you think ret isn’t valuable?
Yes, when the changes haven’t gone against what the current developers consider the “spirit” of TBC. They haven’t done anything to buff specific specs beyond what they were originally capable of in TBC yet. Faction specific seals swapping was a large change, but it didn’t fundamentally change what ret paladins are capable of.
At the end of the day, it’s not really an issue of popularity of the twisting form (obviously the one that does more dps with less effort is going to win), it’s about where blizzard wants to draw the line on changes.
All we can do is provide our opinion on it, and so we are.
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more misrepresentation of the facts from smeet as usual, crusading against his own race smh sad
Hmm, so you ran this and did a global comparison to all other classes in the game and also carried this all the way out to all possible gear sets and permutations of talents.
Not just Paladins, ALL CLASSES AND ALL GEAR!
If so, I am sure we would all love to see that analysis for ourselves.
Who has been asking for gearing or itemization changes? How does the implementation of a class mechanic wind up causing changes to existing gear stat allocations? I’m not sure how you are getting from A -> B here?
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Simple. Class balance is factored around talents, gear, stats and DPS output compared to all other classes.
It is how a simple change of a spell lasting 20 seconds instead of 15 can turn a class from Blah to OP over night.
If you make a change that has the potential to increase one classes DPS, it has direct impacts to the whole class balance equation. I am making the point that if they change this, it could mean balance issues.
So… you say that it is BS that it has impacts on our gearing, then say that it causes us to stop taking haste.
So… it does have an impact on gearing?
What facts have I misrepresented?
It was not in TBC (fact)
The initial version on the PTR should not be treated as the final iteration, as PTRs exist to test and fix mechanics.
It increases ret paladin DPS significantly (fact)
It changes the ret paladin optimal rotation compared to tbc (fact)
Other classes are not getting buffs like this, or adjustments to their rotation (fact)
Because of the changes in rotation, gearing (regarding haste), and DPS, it is not simply a “quality of life” improvement (fact)
I’m not misrepresenting anything here.
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So you’re saying that if they change anything for one class, they MUST adjust all other classes so that at the end of the day they all end up in the exact same position relative to each other when it’s all said and done? I don’t agree with you there but it’s an interesting point of view on things.
At the end of the day, one way seal twisting will take a 1k dps paladin and make them 1.15k dps paladin. Two way twisting will improve on that to around 1.35k dps (it’s not linear due to a couple free GCDs over one way twisting). There is no world in which a ret is going to be cracking 2k sustained dps any time before T6 while enhance, elemental, shadow, and all the pure classes can accomplish that in T4 (except maybe mage, poor mages). I think everyone’s dps meters are safe from the dreaded seal twisting paladin.
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Uh obviously, join the Light Club discord and come check out all our sheets.
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No! What I am saying is we do not know the potential impacts to class balance. And to assume that it is just some minor DPS increase is wrong. For all we know there could be some potential gearing bugs later in the expansion that turns this simple change into a Class breaking change that requires more changes.
Point is, none of us on these forums know and are just throwing out guesses based on our limited understanding of the game, class and overall backend calculations.
We have to all admit that there is a possibility of unforeseen issues with two-way twisting. Issues that purhaps Blizzard foresaw and this is why they changed it.
There isn’t though. Everyone has seen it play out on pservers and all it does is make ret convenient to play and competitive on literally 2 bosses in 4 raid tiers lol
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I understand your point a little better thanks. There could always be an unforeseen interaction waiting out there but I’m not sure where it would come from. Paladins don’t scale well or at least not as well as other classes. Our damage profile is a mix of mitigated attacks, unmitigated attacks, and spells affected by spell power. Here’s a napkin breakdown of %overall damage affected by each dps stat:
- AP - 90-95% (less if using consecrate or exorcism)
- Crit - 100% (less if using consecrate or exorcism)
- ArmPen - 40-50%
- Haste - 60% (we have headaches if haste goes above 25-30%)
- Spell Damage - 20%
Even for crit, Paladins lack a crit damage bonus talent so we are a straight 1:1 class. Something would have to go horribly horribly wrong mechanics wise for some factor to cause Paladin damage to go off the scale. We simply don’t have any stats that can go exponential. All the other classes have direct scaling of near 100% or more for each of the stats listed above. If there’s some malfunction that would affect Paladins, it’s going to affect the other classes at an even greater level.
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Cliff notes: there are no hidden imaginary doomsday interactions, they’ve tested it for years literally, it’s just a slight boost (IF you can even be coordinated enough to pull it off for 2-5 minutes in a row without messing it up for a monster dps loss)
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You might have a point here if we didn’t have sims, or (admittedly not canon) pservers to demonstrate what the capabilities of bi-directional twisting are compared to single.
The fact is that changes were made by giving alliance seal of blood, and by removing batching thus removing hunters one button macro rotation. Rogues also suffer from batch removal in pvp. It’s really hard to hang your hat on #nomorechanges when a topic is already on the table and has been looked at, and commented on by the devs asking for feedback (which is what this thread is).
We saw the potential of a smoother, more complete rotation with resolution and it captured the attention of the community along with a post by the CM about their intentions which then didn’t align with the second wave of beta changes.
I personally don’t feel that enabling bi-directional twisting would change the raid comp whatsoever as ret would simply move up into the next tier of DPS on the meters but not enough to warrant anyone choosing a new main. No warriors or rogues would lose their spot. The only change this actually makes to PVE success (all I personally care about) is that the rotation becomes smooth like my brain.
I think we’re all just looking for an official response as to what the devs feel is the final word on the subject. They asked for feedback, it’s been provided. I just hope they make their decision official in some capacity instead of letting us find out later. As they’ve said numerous times, the game has been solved. Why are we adding uncertainty at the last minute?
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Couldn’t say it better myself
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Others have pointed out, but I will restate it. Paladin DPS in not going to top meters with two way twisting.
Also, #nochanges, isn’t a thing anymore.
To those talking about other classes not getting changed, if this happened to another mid or low range DPS spec I would be right by their side supporting them. I don’t want a game where every spec is equal, however, the imbalance in TBC certainly leaves room for #somechanges without breaking the game. There is no danger of paladins catching warlocks and hunters.
This isn’t even gonna be a big enough difference to change raid comps, as has been pointed out. You give the 2 ret paladins in your raid a 20% dps increase and you’ve got a happier player base.
I’m a GM in classic and run a lot of PUG raids, so I’ve played with hundreds of unique players, if not well over a thousand. I haven’t ran across a single person who fears this in game. Everyone views it as a non-issue or as an intriguing concept.
As for PVP, ret paladins are so far from OP in PVP, that there is literally no ideal team comp that has a ret paladin on it. Literally zero. It would take a lot more than this to cause an issue.
These arguments are against the unknown. In the very least you could support putting it back in the PTR or TBC Beta to prove on Blizzard servers that it’s a completely safe thing to do.
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I have never seen anyone whine this hard for buffs. It’s comical. You even admited that 1-way is more accurate to the way it functioned in tbc, but you still don’t care.
If all you care about is winning the dmg meter then play something else… Hunter looks great without that bs macro.
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I would point out that the addition of the seal delay was done to mimic what was possible under the original TBC batching of 400ms. This isn’t even #somechanges, this is just making the seals play the way they did in 2.4.3. The only thing comical is your ignorance.
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