it wasn’t about being witty, i just double checked and your not the guy disputing two way twisting being a thing in the past, i thought i was responding to him. My bad.
Idc personally if you guys do or do not get two way twisting, but considering it wasn’t a thing in the past makes it a balance change, which means other low dps classes are also free to ask for changed to benefit them.
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I agree with this on its face, but the thing is they did ask for feedback, and the primary complaint is not about asking for more DPS but for a complete and uncluttered rotation. I personally would be OK with a damage reduction to match 1 way twisting but have 2 way twisting. I think a lot of us feel this way, the parse chasers be damned.
I don’t believe there is any other DPS spec that has an incomplete rotation that throws it off balance and has no natural resolution. If they want to argue to fix rotations that rely on short CDs that make them wonky, I would have no complaints. Seeing as twisting was unintended originally but created a new baseline rotation for the class it only makes sense to either embrace it or remove it - leaving it in its current state would be unfortunate.
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It’s current state is more or less how it was like in TBC isn’t it? it doesn’t make sense to me that since blizzard wants to keep it how it was for paladins that they should then need to buff it beyond what it was. I get that paladins have some issues, i’ve leveled one myself, ret is boring af, but that’s how the class was. If blizz was making a classic plus i think they should retool the spec, but that’s not what they are doing here.
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One of my biggest complaints about the one way mechanics is that it removes all choice from the player. It requires 3 out of every 4 GCDs to execute. Nice and engaging but leaves no room for anything other than twisting since the 4th GCD is occupied by CS. It takes over the entire rotation and gameplay. Two way allows for 1 open GCD in the same 4 cycle which gives a little breathing room.
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No you misunderstand. Twisting was not intended as a part of the class design for TBC. They removed it at a later time (after TBC) but have chosen to include it in TBC classic, acknowledged it, made some changes to batching, then asked for feedback on it after we saw two way twisting (apparently a bug) and then made some changes which broke 2 way twisting (which worked when batching was in).
This is not something we came up with to ask for randomly, it was in the game briefly during testing.
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They didn’t so much remove it as they baked it into the paladin mechanics. Seal of Command was replaced with a new seal of blood clone that affected all white hits and specials. They added an additional strike in the form of divine storm. And the new seal struck 2 additional targets if the base attack or special was single target. It became triple twisting with no extra buttons 
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there’s lots of bugs and oversights that get tested but never make it to live. That is sort of the point of testing. I know that it was on the ptr briefly, i know you didn’t come up with it out of thin air, but my argument is that it never existed in TBC orginally. If blizz wants to put it in NOW, lots of people, including me are going to see it as a balance change on top of the one you’ve already gotten with horde\ally seals. Blizzard is welcome to open that can of worms, but if they do I fully intend to pester them to buff my TBC main class. It’s not like spriests are in any better of a position, ideal raid comp includes exactly 1 of each of us. We both offer enough utility that they want 1, but our dps is low enough that few raid’s will want more then 1.
You see this as a balance change, we don’t… we see it as a gameplay lifestyle change that permits us more freedom of play. It so happens that it also adds DPS but that’s not the primary goal, and we’d be happy to have some damage removed to account for the increase in dps with bi-twisting. So no positions on the charts change, no change to the meta or rosters being brought to raid. Just more fun for those slogging through ret.
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The biggest problem with SPriest is gear itemization. You are the 2nd best scaling class out of all the casters (behind warlocks). You are actually set up to surpass warlocks damage wise if you had the right gear available. You have 10% hit through talents which warlocks don’t. You also don’t really need crit since it does almost nothing for you and you get 15% to mind blast through talents to make up for not gearing for it specifically.
If there were gear pieces that were pure haste and spell damage available you would be the #1 caster dps hands down. It’s just that as the tiers progress the spell damage stat doesn’t grow much and instead they way over itemize spell hit and spell crit. It’s a damn shame cause spriest is one of the best class fantasies available in wow.
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Twisting in general does this.
In both forms you build up haste to the point where the only abilities you are really using are CS, judgement, and twists. 2 way gets to maybe occasionally throw an exorcism if you limit yourself to the 3.0 soft cap of haste.
This is a problem with twisting in general, and is not resolved by 2 way. The fact of the matter is that crusader strike is literally our only button that deals more damage than your average twist, so you aim to set yourself up to the point where you maximize twists and minimize every button press that is not CS or twisting.
If blizzard actually made our spells scale well with our gear, twisting wouldn’t even be used.
The feedback they were looking for was specifically in relation to how it worked on live realms though, not about how much it was liked. The base fact being that 2 way blood/command twisting is unlike TBC behavior, so it is unlikely to return.
I mean, what we call seal twisting was removed (I believe mid-wotlk). It didn’t last in the game for very long after discovery.
It is both. You can’t ignore the significant impact on the class’s tuning. Adjusting 2 way twisting to make it not a dps buff over 1 way twisting would require nerfs to base seals, which would also be a balance change.
There’s no way that this doesn’t involve changing the balancing of paladins.
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Smeet good God everyone gets it, you’re half the posts here ffs
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While I agree that it’s unlikely to return, the feedback request was about how things compared from the PTR to live realms. I believe at that time (someone will have to correct me if I’m wrong as I play horde) two way twisting worked on the PTR with all available seals. This seems like an implicit request to provide feedback on two way twisting as a whole not just what would persist onto the beta or TBC classic client when batching was removed.
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Yeah, that post went out as they made their first implementation of seal twisting 2.0, which allowed literally all seals to be twisted, including multiple ranks of the same seal. The original form was very obviously a rough draft of the mechanic, and wasn’t going to remain as is.
When it comes to classic WoW twisting, the only dps boosting twist that was possible involved SoR/SoC and Seal of the Crusader. Because seal procs now check at swing start, you can’t really replicate how SotC twisting used to work with the seal lingering effect they went with.
The rest of the functional twists were SoC into a seal that could trigger off of the SoC hit, like justice.
The feedback was given that it was mostly inaccurate, and it got scaled back to something reasonably close, although the SoR twists they enabled are still off, it slightly compensates in classic for the loss of SotC twisting.
Honestly I’d have just preferred them leave batching in rather than trying to individually reintroduce the batching interactions. It is a stretch to argue that blizzard was looking to redesign twisting into it’s most popular (and more powerful) form here, rather than just trying to make sure we didn’t lose something major from the batching change.
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Please expand the seal switch forgiveness to all seals.
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I mostly just want bidirectional twisting because I don’t understand the one directional rotation. There I said it.
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My testing on the beta is thus:
sotc > judge + soc macro > Crusader strike > SoB twist (within last .4 seconds of swing timer) into immediate soc > then sob twist again > cs > soc > sob twist. You lose a bunch of auto attacks and soc chances though because of the GCD.
This is vs bi-directional where you can perform the following:
Sotc > Judge + soc macro > cs > sob twist > cons/ecorcism > soc twist > cs > sob twist > exo/cons > soc twist > cs > sob twist repeat etc
As you can see there’s actually a rotation for bidirectional, where there isn’t for single direction because you overwrite seal of blood or judge it, and your swings in general become less predictable and optimized, with haste making it more complicated. Also it doesn’t allow for filler consecrate or exorcism because you’re losing the gcd to reapplying soc. Hope that makes sense.
Hopefully Blayst will make a video, because I’m not good at that.
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Is it essentially
Start fight with Imp Seal of the Crusader, Judge it, Seal of Command (in prep for upcoming twist) Crusader Strike, Twist Blood
Then going forward
Use Seal of Command as quickly as you can after a twist but prioritize Crusader Strike?
And you won’t use judgement anymore as long as you’re keeping JotC up with CS?
Pretty much, you can judge if you want but it’s another gcd and you’d only ever be judging blood. One way is incredibly mana intensive as you’re having to switch back to soc after every blood twist. I’ll probably just judge every once in a while when things are close to being dead (especially when grinding or during trash pulls).
I haven’t had a lust, drums, or haste pots going on when I’m grinding on stuff so I don’t know how the rotation feels when you’re doing a superpump phase but I get the feeling that you couldn’t maintain any semblance of a smooth rotation with 1 way like that where as you’re just swapping between esentially 3 buttons with bi-directional, with a start middle and end to each rotation. SoC > CS > SoB, or SoC > SoB > CS > SoC > Exo/Cons > SoB > CS > SoC > Exo/Cons > SoB > CS > SoC
Yeah, on one way twisting it’s basically that.
In practice you’ll mostly end up alternating between a swing where you twist by going to SoC then back to blood, and swings where you use crusader strike.
On a one way twist you can still use judgement. The best time to do so is when you have to swap to SoC, since that’s going to turn off blood anyway you might as well judge blood prior to using SoC.
So after you get SotC up the swings be
CS - swing reset - (judge if possible) - SoC - SoB within .5s of the swing reset - repeat.
Depending on weapon speed you may have an extra GCD in there somewhere, you may not. When haste gets high things just become a priority of CS > twists > everything else as you are able to do it.
ngl boys, it all sounds very confusing
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