Painful M+ leaver *probably will trigger you*

Gameplay Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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20s are super freaking hard this season, and this time I don’t think its the mechanics. Pugging has been horrendous and I am so sick of it. My friend and I have been working all week on pushing our 18 Ruby Life Pools into a 20. We finally had a break and pushed it into a 20, we really wanted to get some teleports before the season ended. A weeks worth of work, with no real io score and we don’t really need the valor anymore.

We get our group, amazing io and super high damage. First pull of our HoV 20 is great almost everyone is over 200k and kicks/explosives are impressively handled. Second pull our DH eats a frontal and dies. He releases, turns around and immediately leaves the group. No words, just walked about the door and left. We were in HoV for maybe 45 seconds max?? The worst part is that there is absolutely no repercussions for his actions, he isn’t in a guild and I couldn’t find a play group so his io is crystal clear, no scratches at all. My friend and I spent HOURS upon hours putting work into our key with no real reward and someone throws all that away because they are mad that they ate a frontal and died.

I am so sick of people, and tbh a lot of leaver type things have been happening in M+. It is so stupid that if you leave a raid finder or dungeon you get a 30m debuff… so blizzard knows when you leave a dungeon but sides with the leaver in M+? Are they just being lazy? I have heard so many amazing suggestions, please feel free to drop them below. It seems like blizzard doesn’t care, and honestly I have played this game for over 10 years and I have never wanted to quit this badly before.

Suggestions:
IO/in-game mythic score tracks how many keys you’ve left before the timer finished (sure you have to leave some, but for example if you leave a large number in relation to the amount of keys you do its obvious what you’re doing)

Every key you are the first to leave before completion time you lose 1 level off of the key you get in your weekly vault

Heck, something super basic like you cant do another m+ for an hour… at this point anything is better than our current system

Maybe there are 2 modes the group leader can set the dungeon to in order to not interfere with non-pug groups. One enforces leaver punishments the other does what we have now.

I would like to end with I get that there are a lot of scenarios where you have to leave a key, and there really should be a trade off someone who is more toxic than me is willing to accept. I don’t care what the key is, if I sign up for it and I can see their io, server, composition and I still do the key I am accepting the consequences of what happens in that key. I will stay, I have stayed for hours before. I know that isn’t everyone, which is why there needs to be a balance and a better system. Clearly blizzard knows leaving dungeons/raids is frustrating because its in LFG/Raid finder but its the matter of it being even worse in M+ and they have done nothing about it.

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So one thing. You said he died second pull in hov. Second pull is the boss. If you can not handle everything onto dragon you doing something wrong. (most cc the first caster). If you guys keep having leavers or struggling in general highly doubt it’s others that the problem.

You guys probably making lots of mistakes and going so slow that no room for error.

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I was not the tank, it was not my decision to split all the trash into 2 different groups but that is what he did. First 2 packs were pulled together and then we went onto the 3 pack with the dragon. I can understand your comment if we had party wipes and deaths, but we stopped all of the damage from happening and he was literally the only death. Just checked the logs to confirm, but he didnt kick once, had the lowest amount of cc done, didnt get a single explosive where everyone else did, he was also the lowest damage. He was definitely the problem, and he decided to kill the key. I think you are assuming way too much from this, you weren’t there and you cant see the logs.

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But you said yourself had a lot of leavers or was just this one time? If just once sure they the issue sounds like a bad dh. Most dh under 3k I found terrible.

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We really time most of our keys both our mains are 2700 but these our are alts. We have both noticed a huge pull back as the season ends where a lot of the really strong players have retired until next season. We still like playing different characters so we continued. I have noticed recently there has been a lot of toxicity in the M+ community due to the exodus of talent and I think it is highlighting some issues that have always been there.

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Honestly, for me one leaver a week each week is a lot of leavers. It is so stupid how much that punishes a key especially after how much time you spend in there. Less than 1% of my keys someone leaves, but this last one sent me reeling I dont know if I will ever invite a DH again.

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I don’t see much toxicity at all personally. I haven’t played much in last month. Got 3 tanks over 3.1k. end season 20s I dislike because it’s ksm players trying to get portals

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I unfortunately had a 2 month late start due to work, but I have finished all my 20s on my main im just trying to get a couple more portals on my alts for the flex.

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Next season I am definitely dodging the last weeks due to this

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it was told many times, LFD/LFR is an automatic queue, that’s why leaver punishment exists. group for keys you put together yourself, assuming responsibility whom you invite.

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So your argument is that it was already told so it must be true? Unfortunately that won’t go far. The whole point I’m trying to make is I acknowledge the current system and think its flawed. There is no correlation between a high io and the chance someone will leave the key. You cannot research this, all you can do is make a weak inference because key leaver metrics are not captured. Currently, there is no punishment for someone leaving a key and I’ve noticed a lot of leavers leave when they are the problem. I am suggesting we implement a better system and my point was there is a system for automatic queue, there should also be one for M+. The risks are so much higher in M+ and there is an imbalance to the risk/reward of this system. Key holders don’t want to make groups and assume the risk of losing their key to leavers which makes them extremely picky when forming the group. People would rather apply to things instead, there is way too much risk on the key holder in the current system and time wasted for all from the toxic player base.

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correct. whether you like it or not, manual grouping assumes responsibility amongst the players, blizzard won’t interfere.

that is absolutely different question.

correct. chance of someone leaving the key is related to overall group or/and individual performance in that particular key.

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You don’t truly realize how bad most of them are until you run with a good one. I did a 24 this week with a 3300 DH and that guy was just destroying the place. Compared to the 3k or under DHs who often end up last by a good margin.

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This is an expected behavior. Putting a group together should never be grabbing the first 4 people to apply or it would be indistinguishable from a queue.

To your point about correlation from io, you’re half right. Grabbing people who are grossly over or under qualified does increase the risk of disparate goals and expectations. Though it’s not a 1 to 1. (Made up/anecdotal numbers Inc) You could probably say that inviting someone with a score 200io above or 500 below increases your risk for a leaver by 30%. It will probably be the higher, it depends on how willing they are to tolerate poor play and be the sole responsibility for success.

All of which could be solved with the “I’m fine with going 5/10m out of time, what do you all think” and letting people bounce who don’t share that mentality.

I’ve been in groups where the leader said, “I’d like to finish this if we can” and then we 2 chested it.

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I think you are missing my point here. I know they wont interfere that is the whole point of this post. They should interfere with an automated system, and I gave examples of when they did and strong arguments of why they should. You are using historic fallacy, its always been like this or that’s just what they do so its valid. No, its not valid and its cause a lot of grief in the community. And it is not a different question, applying an already working system to another area of the game is exactly the aim im going for. They have the capability, there is a problem, we can connect the two together these are my claims.

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100% there is a huge range of players, I think a lot of DH players think they are as good as that 3300 DH and that is where the problem arises lol.

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And in my situation, it never has been. I am a very seasoned M+ player- I have been pushing 20+ keys every season for years on a wide range of classes. You can check out my main on io. My gripe is with the ones who join the key, completely botches it as in they make the mistakes, they throw the key and then leave from embarrassment/deaths. We could still finish but since they left, we now can’t. These are the situations that will frustrate any player, and they have been happening more and more often. These are the situations I am talking about nothing else; a lot of people are making incorrect assumptions on my original statement.

I think letting people include their goals at the start of the key is a great suggestion, but technically the + at the end of 20+ is what that implication is. I think people have either misplaced the meaning or forgotten this. 20+ is one star, ++ 2 stars, etc, 20/completion is no stars. We already have a system but it seems to have been lost.

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No, you’re not understanding that it’s a player problem not a game problem.

No, they shouldn’t, and your arguments for why they should aren’t strong.

No, that’s not the reason he gave. He told you manual grouping is a player responsibility. That’s the reason it’s like this. Not “because it’s always worked this way”.

It is valid, and the current system only causes grief for people who don’t utilize the power they have over creating groups very wisely. If you invite four random people so that you can get a group together quickly, then you made a choice to prioritize speed over effectiveness. Maybe the group works anyway, but that’s not where your priority was. If you care about making a group where no one will leave you need to form that group differently.

And you’re wrong. The punishment system in place for automated group queuing is appropriate for groups that are created by the system but is not appropriate for groups created by a player. Just because a propeller is appropriate on an airplane doesn’t mean it should be installed on every vehicle. It’s not even appropriate on every airplane. Just because they can use that system here doesn’t mean they should.

Who invited that person? If you don’t want the risk of someone leaving then don’t trust strangers with your key. If you insist on inviting strangers, then you’ll need to be a lot more careful about who you invite.

You’re grossly misusing IO if you think this is something that will, or should, show up there. IO score just shows the highest level keys they’ve done, and the quantity at certain thresholds. That’s valuable information, but it won’t tell you anything about if they understand everything they need to know for your group, if they’ll make a mistake (hint: everyone makes mistakes), and if they’ll leave. You will need to use other tools to assess those things.

So stop trying to use coded language and communicate what you mean directly with actual words to the people you invite, before you start the timer. Not everything needs a “system”. Just talk to people ffs and tell them what you want. If they want something different than say, sorry, not a good fit, GL, and replace them.

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This is neither widely used nor accepted nomenclature for the community at large. There are some people who announce they will leave untimed keys by adding the plus signs, but that does not mean that every key listed as just the number or “+15” is a no leaver key. If there is some groundswell to list keys in this way, I’m all for it and don’t mind participating, but as of right now, you’re making assumptions based on a small percentage.

Both of your paragraphs tell me that you are far too focused on your own opinions to make any rational analysis of the community writ large. I could give a crap about you being 60io or 3800io. If I wanted that info, I’d look it up.

Your beef with other comments has nothing to do with me. I’m not defending anything or anyone. I’m advocating for personal accountability when building groups and communication to weed out players that will only frustrate you. That’s all. Any anecdote is simply that. I don’t doubt that it happens because I’ve seen it, but in the number of keys people have left that I was in, it’s an exception.

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It was widely accepted in both BFA/SL, and it’s a system we had that people just don’t use anymore I would understand if you didnt play during that time. We were given a system, and as a community we removed its value. This would probably happen again due to individuals’ inherent laziness, it’s not a good solution imo since if enough people becoming complacent it would place us back to square one.

Blockquote
Well I think that should be obvious, I am sharing my experience and suggesting solutions based off of my encounter. It is going to be bias through my lens, and a solution for me will not work for everyone that’s the whole point of a forum. You don’t have to take it personally, but a lot of people yourself included are assuming that the reason they left was because I messed up building the group, something was wrong with the dungeon, I invited the wrong people etc. That is not the point of this discussion, and I wanted to provide credibility to my claims by saying I know what I’m doing. Regardless, tearing me down as a strawman distracts from the bigger topic which I was trying to avoid.

It simply boils down to my friend and I put hours in the week to try to farm a key up on our alts that were well geared and had timed 20s in the past. Another individual joined the key, bombed it, and then left immediately and there is no justice for the key holder. I have been in a fair number of failed keys, and life will move on, I’m simply saying the system could and should be better. I am sharing an experience that has made me want to quit wow, which is feedback blizzard wants to hear hence the forum post.