Outlaw Rogue Theme Disappointing

Ghostly Strike in its current form is definitely not worthy as a capstone. It is just a slightly better version of Revealing Strike.

If GS could ignore armor then maybe.

Greenskin wickers ate the nerf along with Fan the Hammer. But that didn’t make sense as it was only a PVP issues for Greenskin wickers. While Fan the Hammer was primarily a PVE issue.

Crackshot ate nerfs in PVE and PVP and only some of the PVE nerfs have been dialed back.

The problem is that Outlaw is going in a million directions and the way they are applying changes to talents can be very troubling for many to follow.

:surfing_woman: :surfing_man:

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Yah

Are you being serious or what does this even mean?? Bro I’m going crazy from reading these forums and I now get why devs dont know what to do :joy:

Roll the bones is a 45 sec cd on restless so its basically up every 10 seconds if you wanted to reroll that often.

Regardless, modern outlaw has had the RNG of roll the bones completely removed for a LONG TIME now. There is so little rng when it comes to your buffs these days. Anyone pointing out rtb rng is just outing themselves as someone who doesnt play the spec or at least has zero clue how it works atm.

Talking specifically Crackshot and ace.

Pretty bad that “roll the dice” defaults to RtB brainrot though. Good for a chuckle.

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I’m not sure you actually know what youre talking about. Have you played outlaw outside of mop remix, and if so, has it been during dragonflight in a key higher than m0 or a raid outside of lfr?

Edit, ok so I just remembered youre the guy saying people who play outlaw swap to sub. Right lol, can confirm youre an actual troll lmao.

And people wonder why no one plays Rogue or goes into the radioactive epicenter that is Ravenholdt Discord.

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With the loss of set bonus how is this going to be less or little RNG regarding RTB???

Is it because of the changes to Count the Odds talent?

Honestly I am not seeing it. What I am seeing is more headaches on the horizon.

Between Loaded Dice and Count the Odds you have two talents to make RTB function properly somewhat. Talents are supposed to be enhancing not covering huge flaws with the original design.

:surfing_man: :surfing_woman:

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IDK, I had to mute. I don’t think these “skill expression”, “but do you have any proof”, “do you even play at a high enough level”, “everyone’s an idiot but me” types come off with the message they’re hoping to convey. I think it’s pretty clear when I’m seeing my feedback coming from others in a pretty similar tone that I’m not far off the mark… Shoving as many bte into a cs window iff ace procs doesn’t seem like fun.

Seems fine if you have someone babysitting your cooldowns and pulling around you, but realistically who can rely on that in an everyday setting? Doesn’t seem like a good premise to design the entire game for the spec.

Also, cracking up at the term Hillbilly Subtlety. Thanks for that.

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Im not sure what you mean. RTB rng isnt meaningful and hasnt been for a while. You’re 1. lying on the forums to prove a point or 2. Actually dont know how the spell works.

People who care about rogue rarely come here because of the sheer “make it combat again” vibe that the entire rogue section has become. Outlaw has at least a minor niche of being the fastest spec in the game and most people here just want cata gameplay back.

Calling everyone liars is why you don’t post on your pally anymore.

So again what makes RTB balanced without the set bonus from Dragonflight?

:thinking: :thinking: :thinking:

We are waiting for an answer but I am old so have some mercy on me.

Thanks.

:surfing_woman: :surfing_man:

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I think people just forgot how quickly a bad roll killed the flow of your rotation with us being spoiled for a large chunk of time with this current tier set. The loss is going to be super noticeable.

It was always manageable in a vacuum, but when taking RTB RNG in context to also losing a ton of uptime with the acro removal and TWW dungeons being insanely anti-melee, I don’t think a lot of people understand how miserable a bad RTB roll is going to be here soon.

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I also double-checked CPM because I feel claiming that Outlaw is the fastest spec in the game is wildly incorrect. The fastest Rogue? Well, let’s find out.

WarcraftLogs is currently not correctly eliminating duplicated Pistol Shot casts for Fan the Hammer or duplicated Dispatch casts off of Crackshot.

When correcting for these bugs and eliminating neutral events like potions, trinkets, and environmental actions (used Brackenhide for all samples, so the Brew and Cleanse were excluded), the Outlaw CPM for prepatch is currently clocking ~50 for top logs.

I compared the same values for Sub and used the same rules for elimination of neutral events, trinkets, and environmentals, it landed around 47. I was shocked to find that Outlaw is faster than Sub, but factoring the changes with Shadow Dance and the energy slowdown on Sub, it’s not that shocking.

To confirm I’m not insane about the prepatch slowdown affecting Sub, I again checked Sub with S4 values and before prepatch, Sub was slightly over 50.

Which is all fine and great, but does the claim that Outlaw is the fastest spec in the game turn out to be true? Well, it shouldn’t take exploratory data analysis and careful scrutiny of metrics to realize that tanks tend to have a surplus of off-GCD abilities, from Ignore Pain, Ironfur, Purifying Brew, etc. So, if you follow that simple action logic and pick the tank that can spam that off-GCD action the most (Prot Warrior), you might expect they will end up being the fastest spec in the game.

Don’t think it’s right? Check it out. I’m not the expert on Prot Warrior to know what to include or exclude but in the few I checked, Shield Slam, Thunder Clap, Ignore Pain, and Revenge alone cross that 50 CPM threshhold.

The last thing to consider, is maybe it was just meant that Outlaw is the fastest damage spec in the game. But anyone who has played Fire Mage in the past and is familiar with their off-GCD Fire Blast juggling might get a kick out of running the same set of tests and checks.


Edit: I do not agree that any spec should be designed for either paradigm, fast or steady play, even though that’s how it works out in game when you compare specs like Sin. In the case of Outlaw, it is exclusively the sword spec for rogue and for the sake of all players, not just a few performers, design principles should incorporate a variety of play styles. And, bringing the whole conversation back to the OP, should integrate itself into the spec theme and not just the Sanic the Hedgehog “gotta go fast” framework. Outlaw is still disproportionately spending talent points to get back to pre-DF parity (MM hunter was bad too during DF but was significantly improved going into TWW), where most talents are focused on granting skills that should be baseline like Combat Potency, Ruthlessness, Heavy Hitter, or Dancing Steel, instead of flavor-enhancing options that draw out the inspirational fantasy of a specialization. And don’t even get me started on the placement of Underhanded Upper Hand on the left side of the tree, separated from the center path of Adrenaline Rush or the right-hand path of Blade Flurry, despite its focus on extending access to specifically those two skills. A fun heuristic may be to count the number of choice nodes in a spec tree that affect its actual gameplay and not its utility–Outlaw is currently at ZERO choice nodes excluding the Float/Sting utility node. The recently rebuilt Windwalker is at SIX…

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Outlaw feels horrible. As someone who has always come back to it over the years to see the changes, man I can honestly say this is the worst I’ve ever seen it. Relying on vanish for offensive power is such a terrible design for outlaw. Downright terrible.

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Yeah no that’s not even remotely correct. You can go straight to the simc profiles and the average is 83apm right now on prepatch. The only two specs that are potentially higher is Prot War and Prot Pal because of the amount of off GCD abilities they have.

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They (Blizzard) kind of shot themselves inadvertently by making Shadow Dance accessible to all the specs and everyone got a taste of how busted it was.

Now you can’t back pedal the playstyle completely because some players got a taste for it, and you can only jury-rig a solution after the fact. It doesn’t help that Crackshot spam is by far the strongest build and refugees from Subtlety have taken to it like grim death on an octogenarian.

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Here’s one of the samples
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Rygj1JrfDFkKTYb4#fight=1&type=casts&source=7

366 Pistol Shots in the event log are duplicates (Pistol Shot casts registering in less than 0.55s of each other), and 181 Dispatches follow BtE within the same time window.

Eliminating just these 547 events registered in error reduces the logged CPM from 75.6 to 55.0.

I can’t speak to whether or not SimC shares the same parsing errors or bugs, but the data is available. You’re not arguing with me, but evidence.

It’s also worth mentioning:

It would be a little harder to find, but ToI druids are high CPM but in a small action space (since it’s mostly Ironfur).

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WCL is not pulling prepatch information correctly + you can just look at any S4 log and see thats the case and not only that, you linked a dungeon log of all things which includes downtime. It’s not even worth continuing this discussion. If you’re playing outlaw at 50 APM you’re gray parsing with people that died halfway through a fight.

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Is APM a different measure than CPM? You might be speaking a different language. Again though, that log isn’t a gray parse so I don’t need to say any more on the topic.

I’m assuming APM is within a simulated fight space, whereas the logs are registered across the entire dungeon. Does that mean some fights will be more APM? Yes – but realistically, the downtime would be the same by actor and CPM would be a better measure of overall player activity across a key. That is, higher CPM is the same story as higher APM.

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There’s no point in explaining this because you want to die on this hill while being wrong lol.

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That’s fair enough. Have a good day Bonezz.

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