We had that back in Vanilla too, that’s not new.
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what make you think ‘hard’ is what brought people to woW 15 years ago?
heck, back in 2004 WoW was widely regarded as the absolute easiest MMO at the time… EQ1, DAoC, ultimate online and co. simply laughed at how casual-friendly and forgiving WoW is… no XP on death? graveyard in every zone? can solo to max level? flight path around the world? Quest?..
they have hard content on retail. harder than anything classic has ever offered… and they have everything in between LFR to ridiculously hard mythic-mode bosses.
wathever brings people to classic, it’s not the difficulty of the content
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not going over the list he did.
innervate doesn’t matter when fight last less than 2 minute. neither does meditation for priest. fight don’t even last long enough to use a second mana potion.
having more debuff slot to put corruption is irrelevant for the bulk of your damage ; war, rogue and mage.
the difference is people actually care about maxing DPS instead of being regarded as trash for doing anything more than auto-attacks.
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which is why so many rogue bragged about solo’ing BRD spazzring for their shanker. PvE rogue
cause trash blade was so good…
heck, fury warrior weren’t even a thing until BWL, so ‘many spec’ literally just means rogue.
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Just like he already outlined a slew of contextual realities undergirding the conclusion that older gamers were more likely to seek and conquer challenging material for the sake of it, those same reasons are why people were brought to WoW: progression toward an end-goal.
I do find it amusing, however, that people post in this thread about “new” generation add-ons that were literally created during Vanilla…yes, yes, the highest tier raiders were trash tier back then says the kids today while they refuse to go into so much as a deadmines instance without DBM, Details, or Discord!
It’s very clear who is parroting what they read because the talking points are all the same: we were trash back then (clearly hasn’t raided anything since Legion to make that claim), no add-ons existed (simple job of looking at the version notes to see they were created during Vanilla), previous MMOs were so much more difficult (ignoring the fact that first gen MMO players were in our 30s and migrated over to WoW and damn well knew how to play an RPG, etc.
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Why is this a meme? Are you people seriously so dumb as to think the information doesn’t exist?
http://www.classicwowtalents.appspot.com
Except for the fact people discarded it in favor of Krol Blade, among many others, because they didn’t get how well extra hits scaled. On top of that it was a quest reward that a majority of players got, later sold/DE’d, and couldn’t recover.
Same with the +Dagger Skill dagger reward from Jailbreak, the dagger from Scholo, etc. The forethought and the theorycrafting were both lacking entirely.
[quote=“Vlorg-thalnos, post:275, topic:304593, full:true”]
Let’s imagine there are 10,000 guilds in WoW doing mythic.
10,000 * 20 - 200,000.
Now let’s be generous and imagine there are 2 million people playing retail.
20,000 / 2 000 000 = 10%
That would mean 90% of the people playing retail aren’t doing mythic raids, which sounds accurate to me, if maybe a bit generous.
Saying mythic raiding is the driving force for players, when 90% aren’t even doing it (which Blizzard themselves have admitted), seems inaccurate.
The main argument being made, btw, is that most people are playing retail due to mythic raiding. That statements is inconsistent with the fact roughly only 10% do mythic raiding.
The guy I quoted claimed if you’re not doing 650 dps you’re bad yet on rag the highest is 630 lolll double standards much
Theorycrafting was lacking? Elitist Jerks existed back then my man and the GM of the guild is was none other than Ion himself. The closest thing to EJ is mmo-champs which is nothing but a shadow of the former. I guess we could argue the rough analogy for how players access the material is through wowhead (we had thotbot back then, though) and class discords (we had class forums and everyone had a blog back then) but the actual sitting around thinking the math through is completely gone from current iterations of wow–the way itemization is currently makes that pointless. If you get an itch to see what you’re capable of doing you sim your character, which again, was developed during WoW’s nascent years.
Not sure why anyone is making hay about DPS’ing in raids. We cared about DPS but we also cared about living and the issue was threat, not DPS, which is one of the reasons you won’t see DPS brainlessly spamming abilities without regard to what’s happening around them like players do now even to the point of continue while they’re wiping.
You’d have to verify when the first threat meters were developed because the API was very limited in that regard. Threat was estimated because the API didn’t expose it so everyone had to run Omen for it to show anything useful. You don’t notice the rogue using a threat meter do you? Was it because he was too ignorant as a player to understand threat? You think that’s a realistic conclusion? No, of course not, he was spamming feint because he didn’t care about DPS…that’s probably it.
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[quote=“Hidalin-pagle, post:328, topic:304593, full:true”]
then you have heroic guild,
and even if most people don’t get to see mythic raid, it doesn’t means they aren’t a driving force… just like how people talk about MC /legendary even if they won’t step foot in MC.
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But now we’re so l33t with the hard rotation of frost bolt!
Are they tuning subsequent content releases in further phases? If so… neat 
Haha I still don’t understand the retail hate. It has a lot of good things! I will list some…
- Far better encounter design in dungeons and raids.
- Class utilization is more even per role (ie, not one dps class that everybody plays, it’s much more even now).
- Hybrid class utilization is greatly improved. Druids, paladins, and priests are no longer relegated to healing only classes.
- Exceptional art design. I mean… look at the world around you!
Retail also has a lot of negatives, which classic shores up. Here’s some off the top of my head…
- Trivialized world due to flying, increased flight paths, and insta port to dungeons. I like how in classic, the world feels big in spite of it being significantly less land mass than retail (in total).
- Irrelevant leveling content. Classes at low level are just too strong, so it’s easy to blast through quests and dungeon. Being too powerful doesn’t allow you to appreciate challenge. There’s no real challenge in the game until you get to heroic raiding content and higher tier M+. Classic gives you a reasonable sense of challenge from the very start (for most of us :P).
- No compulsion to socialize. It’s too easy to play retail completely by yourself, which is fine for the exception but crappy for the norm. Because of the challenge and scope of classic, people are more likely to help you out because they know they will need help also. In retail, nobody cares.
I don’t think these two games are mutually exclusive. Both games are great and, fortunately, fill different needs… at least, for me. I can go play retail and get exceptional dungeon and raid design that feels meaningful and challenging. I can come to classic to appreciate a huge world to explore, and interact with random people to achieve difficult goals that feel meaningful to me
And they sucked, objectively so. By all means browse through their content from Vanilla and behold the lack of anything substantial, repeatable, or falsifiable as they go with gut reactions, assumptions of Blizzard incompetence, and fuzzy math. EJ didn’t start becoming more robust until mid-TBC with competent theorycrafters doing the unheard of thing of substantiation with both logs and models. I would know, I was one of them.
Threat is a binary thing, always has been, always will be. The problem with Vanilla-era threat is that no one knew WTF they were doing with regards to it, threat wasn’t even pinned down in measurable form (and Vanilla-era Omen was badly approximated) until midway through the experience and people stuck with the dumb “Wait for Sunders” meme well into Naxx.
Compound that with Warriors refusing to use daggers or other fast weapons and not being able to prioritize mechanics that best scaled with Rage generation on top of the fact Warriors only have static threat mods on their abilities and yeah, people were all around confused and unable to manage their threat.
Yes. Absolutely. Lack of knowledge of how threat works and bad information circulating as good because it had the stamp of a slightly more progressed guild behind it made people believe and act on all manner of stupid things. He’s spamming Feint, a skill that reduces threat by a static amount and can barely compensate for even a fraction of the threat produced between the skill usage. He used Slice and Dice zero times.
He’s a quintessential Vanilla-era raider. Clueless as to how most mechanics work, but dedicated enough to playing the game to stick it through until the boss dies.
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which is still 3 times higher than your claim.
So I called him out on it because the pug I was in that 2shot rag had top dps around 200dps
now if you look at a shorter fight, like shazzrah, you’ll see people doing even more than 650 dps.
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that’s the thing.
a lot of player back then mixed in various spell that had no reason to be… but used them anyway because they were there.
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That’s also my point. Nerf frost.
Try using your reading comprehension skills and reread what you quoted from me.
I’m curious how you can admit that threat was obfuscated behind the API yet attribute the lack of knowing how it works to player skill?
There was no measurable way to assess threat yet the players were bad for not knowing how it worked?
The point was I making that you initially would have had to agree with had you remained consistent in your position was that players were approximating threat and responding to it blindly…because the tools didn’t exist to accurately measure it not necessarily because they were bad players.
Regardless, it’s simply false to claim we had no theorycrafting back then. As rudimentary as it was, it still existed whereas the paint-by-numbers build pages that passes for information regarding the game currently isn’t even worth discussing.
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it’s almost as if you missed the last 15 year of development when it came to theorycrafting and modeling…
You misunderstood the point.
People are saying they are bad because they had no idea what they were doing, didn’t even know MC existed, and barely even knew how to play their classes.
In reality, there were guides, there were videos, there was LOTS of discussion about what was optimal. Peeople weren’t ignorant, they were following the advice that they felt was the best at the time.
The reason everyone was stacking FR isn’t because they had no idea what they were doing - quite the contrary - they were doing it because guides were telling them it’s what was needed.
In other words, I’m fighting against the argument that people were bad because they were ignorant. No, they were aware, they were very aware.
Instead put the blame on websites like elitist jerks for producing guides that you feel were inaccurate or sub-optimal, but don’t tell me everyone was just running around like Chicken Little and barely aware of the Internet in their online game.
Are you seriously going to argue that the current lead developer Ion hazzikostas, a member of elitist jerks who produced various videos and guides, had a harder time clearing content because Ion was simply ignorant of how to play WoW?
Are you next going to argue that people playing the game at the time ignored these videos, never watched them, and heck, didn’t even know you could see videos on the Internet? You are going to say people like Antheme never became popular because the notion of watching videos on how to play better never happened?
Many of you are basically trying to rewrite history by blanket stating that everyone playing back then was just stupid. Vanilla was 15 years ago, not 150.
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