"Only I can save this world!"

I went down this rabbit hole a little bit and apparently there was, at one point, an origin story where he’s actually the brother of King Randor but because he was “mixed-race” (that’s what the article says, not sure what was mixed) he got passed over for the Throne of Eternia, but considering Randor is textbook “The Greatest And Goodest King” and Proto-Skeletor’s first response was apparently to start an open violent rebellion with chemical weapons that end up eating his face so he has to sell his soul to come back as a skeleton faced monster, I’m not feeling too much sympathy there.

Plus it only exists once, otherwise he’s always an invader from the delightful 80’s location of “Another Dimension.”

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Yeah see my only He-Man experience was the 80s original so my only memory of Skeletor is NYYEEEEEH and no nuance beyond that.

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Plus knowing the 80’s it was probably he was half Eternian and half Evil !@#$ing Space Demon-Dragon, rather than be, say, a touching allegory for the injustices and insensitivity that those of mingled parentage had to endure.

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For all Obsidian cribbed the Interplay Fallout 3 design documentation (Which I don’t really begrudge them for, seeing as how they had 18 months to put things together), I remain awed by the fact that they decided to go with the absolutely terrible idea that was Caesar’s Legion and not only put it on equal footing with the NCR, but over the course of four DLC packs fail to meaningfully flesh out the Legion as a faction at all. And one DLC featured Joshua Graham.

If we want to talk problems with the “Only I can save this world!” metaphor, that’s a gigantic elephant in the room nobody’s talking about. Or how the oft-hyped but only seen at the end Butcher of the East, whom Caesar himself claims to have fought past the point of mutilation and killed his own people for surrendering…can be talked down with an argument about logistics.

Even full pacifists didn’t get to sweet talk Horrigan in Fallout 2.

I honestly can’t fathom anyone sympathizing with Horus. Archaon? Absolutely. But Horus’ entire heel turn was based on a 100% truthful vision of the future (Just omitting the fact it happens due to his rebellion) and he saw no statues dedicated to him.

That is literally the extent of the motivations we are given from Horus’ perspective as to why he turned heel. Angron gets a more compelling and nuanced traitor turn than the guy the rebellion ends up named after!

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I think they kind of wrote themselves into a corner with that one before going “Oh right, damn, we wanted there to be a speech ending for everyone. Well… 100 Speech is Mind Control now.”

I agree with what else you say regarding the Legion but to Obsidian’s credit (and the delightful chagrin of Legion worshipping chuds) if they thought it was worth the time and effort to make the Legion seem any more redeemable, they would have. The amount of cut content that still exists in the game files but requires a bit of massaging to reattach to the proper script hooks is actually not entirely insubstantial, the alleged (by fans, not the writers) “Justification of Caesar’s Legion” was barely even a footnote in the notes section. A pack brahmin companion was a better use of dev time (which got cut) than fleshing out the Legion. Being able to program a tourist guide robot to be a sheriff so they could have a second neutral option for My Kind of Town if you didn’t feel like siding with the NCR was more important than fleshing out the Legion.

J.E. Sawyer is absurdly candid in conversations and Q&A around New Vegas on his Tumblr and whenever the mention of this mythical pro-Legion content comes up he basically does the text equivalent of mumbling dismissively and going “Well it would have been nice to get to it but I think we were just going to show a few Legion towns.”

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The problem I’ve got with that is basically…the Legion becomes an artificial construct to foster conflict rather than some alternate power in the Western Wastes.

This is a group that supposedly controls everything East to Denver at least. That’s a frighteningly vast amount of territory for what boils down to an enslaved army. We’re given time dealing with NCR’s issues in manpower, supplies, equipment, morale, etc…but everything’s absent in the Legion. Even killing Caesar doesn’t impact the Legion’s eventually attack on the Dam.

My problem with the Legion isn’t that they’re irredeemably evil. My problem with the Legion is in the world of Fallout they are a major political power that SHOULD NOT EXIST. Or that even a major History Buff Follower of the Apocalypse would think that IMPERIAL ROME, of all civilizations, was somehow the one to shoot for.

The Institute at least had some kind of forward thinking plans. Heck, even the Republic of Dave had some justification for its existence. The Legion just exists. And if I didn’t make it clear before, they were a bad idea back in the Interplay days too.

Just ditch the Legion entirely and replace them with the Fiends. NCR’s stretched itself too thin but needs Hoover Dam for the energy it supplies. The Fiends see rich, but soft, targets coming from the West. Over the course of raiding for many years, the Dam gets a reputation for being heavily defended. Which gets the gang’s leadership thinking that there must be something pretty valuable in that oversized bunker if the NCR are not just committed to defending it, but keep sending well equipped guys to keep it secure.

The Legion in general did not need to exist. But if Obsidian decided it ought to, then the least they could do is make them more compelling an antagonist. Or, if they wanted to avoid that, just omit the Legion side questing entirely.

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illidan is a slaving slaver who enslaved people and sacrificed their souls to open a big portal to a scary library world and while most illidari i rp think he’s elune (or i guess the sunwell’s) gift to azeroth, i personally think that he’s a bastard and that’s an understatement

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The problem with all of the “The Ends Justify The Means” anti-heroes, especially when Blizzard writes them and especially in Blizzard settings, is no, actually dude we didn’t need to do like… any of that. I can’t even remember what I did on my Demon Hunter for my campaign other than try to find Illi-dad and brood, outside of the Order Hall I can’t remember what any Demon Hunters did other than get absolutely mulched in opening volleys to set the “oh no, how will we defeat the ebil” OR turn into dungeon bosses.

And I’m a godsdamn Death Knight.

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As I recall, the Death Knight Class Quests involved a lot of Darion going “Are we the baddies?” in response to a lot of the shenanigans Ice Daddy Bolvar quote-unquote-heavy-sarcasm-implied Suggests.

Still sounds more fun than what we Hunters got to do. “Hey, remember this cool looking Infernal dude who controlled all the Felhounds in the Knaak books? Well he’s a Felguard now. Have fun in this repurposed dungeon. Kbai.”

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and also, paradoxically, the narrative is also often built in such a way that they are the only path forwards? illidan had to slaughter all those mages! cause!!! that’s!!! that’s how the demons get beat, y’know? and - and if he didn’t - if he didn’t, get this, if he didn’t kill all those draenei and go to a big scary library he wouldn’t get the place where the sargerite keystone was??? and - and that’s how we kill argus.

but often enough these justifications spring from the brow of the writers, with no (or very little) earlier justification, making the cool antihero ends justify means dudes vindicated by the writing itself. what’s the message there, writers? that sometimes you need to enslave and kill a bunch of refugees to defeat the enemy?

i’m sure the answer would be ‘sometimes sacrifices must be made’ but when the sacrifices are always a bunch of innocent people, it really does make you :thinking:

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I remain absolutely shocked Maiev didn’t slit Illidan’s throat immediately after the Tomb of Sargeras when we’d won and could breath easy and Illidan’s like “Whoops, ripped a hole to the Legion Homeworld because I’ve got a planetary sized Death Wish.”

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All I know is I’m glad at the end of it all, for all the whining people did about Malfurion and Tyrande that their reaction to his last words was like “Cool, thanks I guess but seriously !@#$ that guy and everything he thought was right and every iota of his inferiority complex.”

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right? i know wow exists on rule of cool - and damn if that moment wasn’t cool. but like we just beat the legion again??? they’re gone??? we don’t have to fight them??? because they can’t come back easily???

yeah, sure, whatever, they can return eventually but we have the keystone, illidan. we don’t have to fight them immediately after a war in an alternate dimension’s past and then a global demon invasion. we can prepare? and then fight when we’re more ready?

we don’t even have a space-capable vessel yet illidan you absolute maniac

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Then Velen with the lean in: “Oh yeah btw I’ve been making one out of the Exodar and it’s done so I guess we can go.”

As much as I love Legion I can’t help but continually see it as the most “Luck” based expansion. Everyone just wanted to gloat instead of kill us, we discovered the location of 35 mind shatteringly powerful artifacts that have been lost for centuries, we were always exactly where we needed to be by chance and rarely ever proper planning.

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That always bugged me because Draenei spaceships were piloted by the Naaru, and earlier in the expansion we watched Velen’s kid break the Exodar’s Windchime.

So how exactly was it supposed to go? I get that since Wrath showed A’dun was able to come to Azeroth the simplest solution was just that they got another pilot, but it always bothered me that wasn’t addressed. Especially since that whole encounter was a big part of Velen’s arc for the expansion.

I remember people being so upset about that, too! All I could think was “No, that’s actually a very reasonable reaction given all the crap Illidan has put these two through in just the last decade, nevermind what he pulled back against the Legion.”

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They probably got Illidan to find some ritual somewhere that involved him enslaving, sacrificing, and then soul-enslaving some innocent minority group. Like some kind of neutral Tauren that were stuck on an island somewhere not bothering anyone Moana style.

Speaking of Moana, I was really hopeful that an expansion with such a heavy emphasis on two seafaring nations and the importance of maintaining a navy in World of Warcraft had something a bit more exciting and, you know, seafaring than using random group finders to fall onto random islands.

See, this is what I mean–a lot of these changes to the story happened after the fact, that scene wasn’t in WC3 (I don’t think, pretty sure, been a few years, or maybe I’m outing myself as a fraud).

In recent years, the Blizzard writing team has confused, in their villain writing, making a character that did the “actual right thing,” with a character that did the “mistaken but effective thing.”

Making Illidan interesting by having him try to reignite the Well of Eternity or consume the Skull of Gul’dan, or manipulate demonic power generally, doesn’t at all try to pitch to us that he was/is doing the actual right thing in order to engage the audience. He’s doing something we can understand, which in this case, is a bunch of things that, at best, are one of many solutions and, at worst, a really bad solution, but all ultimately serve Illidan’s interest. He wants to stop the really big bad guys, but he wants to stop them for his own interest, and he’s supposed to tempt us because, some of the time, it works.

Engaging with us in this way has nothing to do with trying to convince us that he did anything admirable. At best, he did something good in a good-for-the-good-guys-kinda way, sometimes. All of this is a far cry from, say, trying to convince us that he did the best and morally obligatory thing, given the circumstances.

And that’s the ludicrous pitch that they keep trying to give us, with later Illidan activities, or later-added Illidan activities, like sacrificing the Moon Guard for mana. I think closing the Azeroth-Argus gap was a cool, classic Illidan move, but trying to convince everyone it was the best idea is still not the way to do things.

Good stories pitch these kinds of villains/anti-heroes by carefully crafting their decisions. Bad ones arbitrarily rig the story so kicking puppies is somehow the only way forward.

And also, I think a lot of what made Illidan obnoxious in Legion was, on a micro level, it being incredibly obvious that no one on the writing staff knows/knew how to write dialogue, or even choreograph scenes. The Nighthold line, “Have a care!” is not a line anyone can, has, or will ever deliver in a way that doesn’t make anyone’s ears bleed. Almost all of Velen’s dialogue in Legion makes me want to crack my skull against the wall.

EDIT: This is me repeating myself and what everyone already knows in long form again. But it’s cathartic for me. Thank you, in advance, for indulging me.

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A bit off topic but the one thing that sticks in my memory of that campaign was the conflict between the Illidari and the Felsouls, Varedis and Caria, and the felsworn defectors they picked up; which in retrospect felt more like a half-baked side story than part of the main plot of the campaign.

Looking back the Felsouls (why do they share a surname?) kinda come of Saturday morning cartoon villains to me; which I find both funny and sad because what they can represent, essentially the potential dark side of becoming a Demon Hunter, the potential of that part of the plot were apparently so interesting that they were the only thing from the story I’m able to recall with enough clarity to relay on a forum post. Considering how bad my memory generally is I think that’s saying something.

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Speaking of doing the efficient but not moral thing, I have to iterate every single time it comes up that all those demon hunters who sold themselves into an eternal power struggle and inevitable madness and damnation did it for…

Nothing.

We absolutely dumpstered the black temple (but wait actually the powerful demon hunters were on a secret mission guys, also without illidan actually kazak(?) or whoever would have totally owned us… allegedly), then we dumpstered the scourge and slapped Arthas, THEN we dumpstered the (second?) most powerful dragon tgat ever their was, also his army of old god related nonsense, AND THEN a magically unheard of continent (and half the horde but the mongo powerful half but not powerful enough not to get owned), AND FINALLY we dumpstered the proto horde and also the entire legion but again.

But then Legion happens and only finally do the demon hunters get to play, except they’re only exactly as useful as your average murder hobo. Also exactly as ineffective because frankly the Fel Hammer does basically nothing except get punked their entire campaign and Daddy Illidan gets to do anything that matters but conveniently gets like no closure with any of his entire order.

If you want to read into that in such a way as “damn perhaps the player characters have too much power” that’s a pretty fair take. On the flip side though the point is mostly that there aren’t any actual stakes or consequences in the writing. Only exactly the thing that needs to happen, will happen, because the events aren’t collected and lined up based on logical progression they’re constructed to ferry us from tourist site to tourist site. Characters that have uniquely applicable skills are waysided for big name, box art selling faces because the game isn’t sold on it’s writing it’s sold on it’s legacy (and if I wanted to be charitable, gameplay).

In theory, at the bare minimum, they could at least approach it with a degree of self awareness and throw it all together in a way that feels fun. But warcraft’s legacy isn’t about fun, it’s about war. (Ugh). Part of that legacy precludes a need for dramatic set pieces full of fantasy tropes and wicked shoulder pads. It demands a certain level of bad dialogue and inconsistent characterization. Because if they weren’t continuing to tow the line and pander to that legacy, if they tried to actually break out of that mold, it would cost them money. Regardless if that means a loss of subs directly, lower box sales, diverted resources, or extended devlopment time, the powers at be will not allow for that kind of risk. They have a formula, they have the cash cow, it will be drained to it’s most withered, empty husk.

Well that meandered a bit, point is it’s hysterical how demon hunters were supposed to be these edgy, power fantasy cool dudes but weren’t even relevant in their own expansion.

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That sort of power level homogenization is necessary if its going to be a playable class, as otherwise nobody is going to play anything but the lore compliant Awesome Power Class, at least outside of RP servers. It is kind of funny though that even though Demon Hunters SACRIFICED EVERYTHING, WHAT DID YOU SACRIFICE some random person can walk up in game and go, “i am man with sword” and spank them at everything they’re supposed to be good at.

But I agree nerf demon hunters