So do ogres have the same capacity for intelligence as any other humanoid? Do they just seem dumb on average because they have chosen lives of brutalism ever since their civilization was destroyed by the orcs?
Or is it fair to say they are bottom of the totem pole in intelligence as far as humanoid races go?
Ogres can be intelligent. You see a bunch of ogres function fine. It seems dependent on individual experiences, like other people.
One thing to remember is to not also mistake poor speech for poor intelligence.
I mean they seemed at least of average intelligence on Draenor. Maybe the loincloths and mud huts lifestyle just doesn’t really leave much room for scholarly pursuits and their society suffered for it.
I don’t remember where I got this from, so I might be wrong, but I was under the impression that stupid ogres were a very recent development, and the empire’s ogres were all super smart.
hmmm.
While I don’t think there’s much lore for the ogres in azeroth, supposedly ogres often return with plunder to their capital for the females. I’m not sure if the devs wanna really explore it however.
There’s 2 theories I have for the Azerothian ogres.
First, I don’t quite recall the full specifics of it, but ogres typically need some sort of outside magical source to promote the really intelligent versions (also the 2-headed varieties I think). They had this on Draenor, possibly with some of the apexis stuff, but not so much on Azeroth. Ogre-magi were mass produced by alters of storms during the 2nd war with an Elven Runestone, but I don’t think that’s quite the same as the original variety in the long run. Also, there’s no more alters, so they can’t go that route anymore anyway.
The other thing to consider is that the Azeroth ogres are the ones brought over from the Dark Portal to fight in the war (or their descendants). Ultimately, they’re soldiers. They’re not there to build up a civilization or anything; all they needed to do was fight. So, when the war ends, and they’r unable to make it back to Draenor, what are they supposed to do? They’re never going to all meet up and start rebuilding ogre society; more likely, they’ll just set up shop in whatever zone they’re in and work from there. And, while it’s true that they probably weren’t selected for their intelligence, most people in a similar situation would have a really hard time building a society from the ground up.
let’s start with the basics, no race in WoW that has reached sapience thought and is capable of learning is dumb on a genetic level, some might have issues speaking outside their native tongue, but not a single race is just pure stupid.
Now for Ogres in particular, they basically had an apolcalypse and lost most of their knowledge, they didn’t keep records on pen and paper nearly as much as they used the magical technology created by the arakkoa for record keeping, the Apexis Crystals, they also have different moral standards then traditionally are considered ok in this (Modern) day and age, which makes them seem overly barbaric. Ogres can even build complex machinery, as seen when kargath uses the weapons built into the Arena of Highmaul in his fight against the players, as well as being the first and foremost practitioners of geomancy, the first dreadnoughts were created by Ogres from enchanted stone.
Why are they so dumb on azeroth? Well it’s likely several reasons, Education is a big one, any remnants of the Gorian Empire on other parts of Dawgar (the gorian name of draenor) would have a very difficult time getting information to azeroth, and most of the 2 headed ogre magi aren’t natural or made by Gorian Sorcerers, but are Mass Produced version made by the shadow council so they could help in the Second War, meaning very few Ogre Scholars are on Azeroth. This combined with the fact many of their leaders where killed by the old horde has forced them into a more scattered, tribal society.
Yeah, my understanding was that Apexis crystals made ogres smart. And when there aren’t any around, ogres get dumb(or revert to being dumb).
While smarter than their ogronn and gronn precursors (magnaron are a bit of a hazier case, as various situation during WoD implied that they’re far more intelligent than they let on, suggesting they may retain some of their Colossi precursors’ intellect before it degenerated in the gronn), even Gorian ogres were generally simple-minded brutes. The apexis crystals made their magic-using leaders far more intelligent, which presumably persisted through their continued use of the arcane since Highmaul didn’t seem to be full of apexis crystals keeping Mar’gok and Co. smart. The ogres in general weren’t made smarter though; the mages jealously hoarded such things for themselves because one of ogre magic’s primary functions was allowing mages to boss around bigger, meaner ogres who would otherwise be in charge of ogre society based solely on size and brutality alone.
So the Gorian Empire and subsequent “city-states” of Bladespire and Highmaul were still comprised predominantly of the standard “dumb” ogres we see on Azereoth and Outland. They were more powerful than the modern MU clans because they still had a cohesive ruling class of intelligent ogre-magi who could far more effectively command and organize their less intelligent brethren.
I would agree that it’s simply due to education, not due to a genetic disposition or a magical influence.
The gorian empire was similar to Rome. A huge, sprawling empire, that built infrastructure across draenor and especially within its own city of Highmaul. No doubt they had colonies on the other continents as well.
In this society, one ogre, the imperator, could not have been the single mind behind this - nor could a small collection of mages. You would need skilled architects to even build something as huge as hightail palace - never mind the mass amount of planning that would have gone into restructuring the world. Math and science were probably taught depending on what trade you picked, and judging from the robust(though ruined) trading center in Highmaul it looks like they’ve got a good economical hold.
Ogres are probably just as smart, if not more intelligent, as most races in WoW. The difference, with any culture I suppose, is education.
I was under the same impression.
Whether they are inherently dumb is an unknowable question.
The undisputed fact that aside from the plateau ogres, Ogres are pretty much dumb as bricks. Violent cannibalistic bricks. Even the two headed mages have a dumb head along with the smart one, so that argues pretty strongly for the “inherently stupid” assessement.
Ogres are creatures of the earth, tied to Draenor itself, as Breakers. On AU Draenor, we encounter many ogres with one head that are pretty functional and downright eloquent, we even recruit one as a follower.
It could be likely that the destruction of Draenor, and/or separation from it via going to Azeroth caused them to regress.
Except that Ogres are described to have been just as stupid when Draenor was intact and uncorrupted… long before the Orcs got seduced by Kil’jaeden, Orgrim had fought battles with them and they were just like we see them now.
Nah… I think they are pretty darn stupid but I don’t see that as an inherently bad thing… I guess?.. I mean it gives them identity as a meme race. Even Cho’gall doesn’t seem particularly brilliant compared to other characters in the lore, he’d be “average” at best and he was the very best the Ogre race had to offer in terms of intellect and cunning.
Then it’s a case of show dont tell
Tbh i use the official blizzard intelligence ratings with a grain of salt, ogres have show to be as smart as any other race in wow, so saying their genetically dumber is just wrong. We also begin losing the ability to properly judge a species intelligence once it gains sapience and the ability to learn.
If I’m not mistaken, the Cho’ part of Cho’ Gall is an orc spirit. The First Horde was big on putting their orc spirits in all kinds of bodies, from ogres to dead Stormwind Knights… the first generation Death Knights.
what??? i need to research a bit about this.
Retconned as of warlords i beleive, along with the mass retconning of wc2 lore related to ogres.
Might be wrong, but i know chogall was exiled from highmaul, and he began studying under guldan after that.
That is not correct, though from the wording of the WCII game manual I can see how you might have assumed that.
Cho’gall is said to have been a magic user from before coming to Azeroth, with no mention of special circumstance. He’s a natural two heaed ogre and always has been. He pre-dates the Caer Darrow experiments that mass produced ogre magi.
As for the second part about putting orc spirits into things, that’s also not true. What Gul’dan put in them was orc spirit’s magic, not the actual spirit itself.
Back in Warcraft II, all ogres were two headed, even the non-magic kind. Heck, in Warcraft III it wasn’t until the Frozen Throne expansion that we even saw a one headed ogre, all of the Reign of Chaos ogres were also two headed.
Lore about two headed ogres was retconned at some point, though I’m not sure when, into being originally a rare birth trait, with the modern two headed ogres being mass produced as a result of the second war.
But shortly, no they do not have orc spirits in them, nor did they ever have.