There’s basically 3 modes of playstyle in WoW currently; Raiding, Mythic+, and PvP. This matches up with most classes having 3 specs, and is why usually your class is at least good at something, or one spec can do one or two of the areas well…
Now there’s Demon Hunters.
We were considered “too powerful” in PvP…yet only in the 2v2 bracket…which doesn’t matter, but complaints…
We have a tanking Spec…that’s basically meme, because we don’t have 100% uptime on our mitigation…which means for raids its not optimal, its OK in Mythic+ if you are good at kiting and know what your doing…which is not the consensus of the general player population…so people will be hesitant to take you as a VDH.
Raiding/DPS…we were average for raids, but always had (and will) have a spot for 1 DH. Mythic+ we were amazing, but i feel this will fall off, unless they buff our damage, or we scale incredibly well (not sure how that will play out)
Bottom line is we were never really a threat ANYWHERE, except non-rated PvP and now we have to play the price for our supposed sins. And the line everyone uses…ouor rotation is stupid easy…thats like 90% of specs these days.
I’m not willing to stick this out. This is my first time playing DH, and it appears to have been a poor decision and very bad time to dip my toe into the DH waters. I’m bailing on DH.
Where is this doom coming from? With respect, your character hasn’t seen much or any of the content you appear to be worried about, so I’m assuming you’re going off the trend of listening to vocal complaints.
We’re doing fine. Perhaps a touch behind here or there, but plenty of the mains have reported success and fun in pvp, vengeance is still very good at tanking (I’m sure raid tanking will be fine), and both havoc and vengeance feel great.
I’ll behave. I know I have a personality flaw (from my fathers side of the family) whereby I tend to overly pessimistic. Think I’m just uber frustrated with Rogue and Hunters 100-0 me in one cc. DH hopefully might get some tuning. Cause it really is a blast to play. The mobility is nice.
With all due respect you are a level 59, the game is not fully unlocked for your level. Havoc is always going to be taken in raids because of our magical debuffs, our aoe is really good (especially when we will be able to get collective anguish), and we have some of the highest mobility in the game to avoid raid mechanics. Vengeance is also really good for m+, I can’t say too much for raids because I don’t usually raid. Currently in pvp vengeance is pretty much the undisputed king of flag carrying since it has so much mobility and survivability. For Havoc it is true that we usually dominate the lower brackets because we punish people that don’t know how to counter us but with mortal rush and the hunt I can see us being very viable in 3v3 and 2v2.
Vengeance is not a meme… at least not right now and not in 8.2 and 8.3.
Yes there are better raid tanks, however our DPS and Self healing is simply insane and with proper CD management we can manage some shocking pulls. Vengeance wasn’t timing the absolute highest keys last tier but we were pretty close.
I do agree that we need more single target damage in Havoc. First Blood should be baseline, our AoE should be uncapped (everyone’s AoE should be uncapped) and they should move the Conflict and Strife or Vision of Perfect major + minor essence into the first blood slot. That would create some real build variety options while making our rotation less miserable.
I’d also like to see C&S or VoP Major+minor put in a talent row for Vengeance. Perhaps the final row, while making Last Resort baseline. This would assist with the active mitigation uptime issues without making us OP. We probably need a spirit bomb nerf as well.
What a strawman. Raid’s are the only place Havoc MIGHT get a spot ATM and only one spot. Also, that spot will be most often filled by a Vengence DH, not a Havoc, since Vengence also has Chaos brand. 5% in M+is meh when there is a lot higher damage and utility specs you can find that make up for the 5% loss.
While the sims have been changing a bit fixing the bugs here and there one thing has remained the same. Havoc has remained at the very bottom. The difference between Havoc and the top is not 5%, not 10%, not even 15%, but 30%, and 12% difference between the middle of the pack and Havoc.
Unless Havoc has the best scaling in the game (not even close) that margin is going to widen and it’s the only DPS spec DH has. Havoc is closer to the highest damage tank than it is to the middle of the pack. Do you have any evidence besides anecdotal evidence to support your position? Because there is statistical evidence that says disagrees with your anecdotal evidence. Until we get a large variety of logs that says otherwise sims are better evidence than rando anecdotal evidence.
People can listen to the overly dedicated fans, or they can listen to the top .01% that Slootbag had on his show. Ya, Havoc can function, but they are far below even the middle of the pack. Also, TBH it’s not that the rotation is easy it’s that blizzard has made it boring.
Seriously if you use the standard build you spend what, 80-90% of your time using 2 buttons?
Is the sky falling? No, but there need to be some fixes and soon.
Since you’ve referenced sims and would appear to take issue with anecdotal evidence, please provide your sims which stipulate what the “standard build” is.
There is no build of which I’m aware that uses two buttons
Stop being a troll I never said there was a build that uses two buttons. I said you spend 80-90% of your time pressing two buttons. DB/CS turn into DB/anni, that is the vast majority of the buttons you will be pushing. In 60 seconds you can only use EB twice, IA 2-3 times, GT at best 3 times, maybe an extra 1 or two other buttons. That leaves ruffly the other 50 APM to be DB/CS at 60 APM that makes 80% of your time pressing two buttons.
If you want the standard build go look up Kibs standard build on Wowhead.
Why would I need a standard build according to wowhead. I know what build to play because I sim my character. That, and I actually main a demon hunter.
Once again, I’m waiting for your sims to justify using the cycle build over first blood.
Reading a wowhead guide doesn’t mean you know anything about demon hunters.
Imagine understanding demon hunters so little that you aren’t even aware of haste reducing GT and blade dance cooldowns, to the point you’re pressing glaive tempest at minimum four times per minute.
I mean, if you’re going to throw out numbers, at least have a semblance of an idea what you’re talking about
Please provide the sims of your havoc demon hunter main that show cycle simming higher than first blood.
Oh plz, you are talking about an extra 2 or 3 buttons being pushed and acting like it’s 20.
Keep up with your troll red hearing, ok. Instead of debating my point, you want to rabbit trail into stupid discussions. The point is that the majority of a Havoc DH time is spent pressing two buttons currently. I really don’t care how it’s going to feel 3 - 6 months from now. What most of us care about is how it’s going to feel in the first tier.
Of course, I don’t know as much about DH as a lot of other people, but Zevade and Kibs know more than you. So get off your high horse. I’m going to listen to them more than I am of you. Who are you anyway? What accomplishments do you hold in the world of high-end havoc players? No one is asking you to go on stream and talk about Havoc because you are the very best.
Any one person’s numbers are anecdotal evidence. But what we do have are the sims and experts that play the class. Together they make a far better argument than anything you can show me. Statistical data and expert opinion, Zevade said there is no reason to roll havoc unless your guild needs the 5% buff. That says to me that Havoc is not doing well. Does that mean they can’t function, as I have already stated, no it does not, but what it does mean is they need some help. And you trolling a reasonable post is not helping anything.
I’m seeing a lot of words but none of them are links to your sims for your havoc dh main playing cycle of hatred.
Never said anything of the sort.
Mmm…kay…??
What reasonable post? You claimed that cycle of hatred is the standard build. I stated the opposite, and asked you to provide sims to verify your opinion. Of course, it’s not your opinion. You read it on wowhead and then came here spouting it as fact when in reality you do not play the havoc demon hunter class, or at least you have no idea how to sim your character, or I expect you would have done so already.
I have plenty of complaints about the design of the havoc demon hunter, and I’ve expressed them multiple times. That said, I do so without spreading misinformation regarding the abilities a demon hunter actually uses in its rotation. If people want to play cycle, they can, and if they want to play first blood, they can do that too. The difference between the talents is no more than a few %, and can go either way.
This conversation is clearly upsetting you so I’ll leave you be. Keep reading them guides!
Way to frame the conversation inaccurately, ya you’re not trying to mislead with that.
As in I am not being a jerk, the post I wrote was a reasonable one, you took 1 sentence and turned it into an argument. I even said,
I did not, I said if you use the standard build.
As in that’s the name it was called, not that it’s what everyone is playing ATM. I guess if I was just newly looking at that post I might have come to the same conclusion. I guess my bias because of how badly you talk down to other people affected me more than it should have, I was a bit hasty and should have better-explained myself and added quotes. You talk down to people though and say patronizing things that would get you in trouble IRL.
You did not, this is what you said next.
Nothing in that post stated: “the opposite”, that CyH was not the standard build. You asked me to define “standard”, stated something which I never said (that there was a 2 button build), and then preceded to talk down to me, and I was very clear that I was talking about time spent pressing two buttons.
So you straight up BS’d what I said.
I then proved there was a build that mainly used two buttons even though I never claimed there was a two-button build.
Again here you are talking down to people, who are you to say what is and is not my opinion? I don’t only read guides, I watch streams, and ask streamers questions, watch loads of YouTube vids, and I listen to those who are not jerks on the forums. I can listen, read, and watch loads of stuff and form my own opinion. When I see mainly one person who talks down to those with the opposing views and keeps saying the opposite of nearly everyone else I have gathered information from I tend to not believe them.
Play it, or main it? I do play it, I haven’t decided this xpac if I will main it yet. I even post on these forums with it. But I am not going to post with it in this kind of conversation because of how badly people like yourself talk down to people. I don’t need to sim my character yet, do you need to sim your character for heroic dungeons and mythic zeros? Right now I am leveling up all of my characters that craft so that I don’t have to pay an arm and a leg. In that time I hope Blizzard starts to make their balance changes.
I didn’t spread misinformation. What I said was true within the confines of what I was referring to. You took one sentence that was questionable and was a minor point (and was meant as a figure of speech) and made an argument out of that instead. The main focus of the post was that Havoc needs help, it’s a bit boring, specing Havoc does not guarantee you a raid spot, it’s DPS is rock bottom, and I will add the only spec a DH can spec for DPS. You ignored all of that and made a deal about how much time is spent pressing two buttons.
I have no doubt that you know how to play your class well, but the way you talk down to people makes you someone I don’t like to converse with because you will and have talked down to me. You are considered by many to be the biggest troll on the DH forums. Mainly because of the way you treat people you disagree with, with patronizing remarks, and talking down to them. I’ve seen you called it many times. There are really nice streamers that treat their watchers nicely even those that ask noob questions, and then there are those that talk down to people, make fun of them, make patronizing remarks, act like an elitist. Then they wonder why their streams never go anywhere.
Reading guides means nothing. Watching streams means nothing.
This is a very pointless conversation, but when you come into the thread making remarks such as you press glaive tempest at most three times in one minute or you spend 80-90% of your time pressing two buttons I expect to you to provide evidence. Also, what does the amount of numbers a class presses even matter? Is there a single class in the game that doesn’t have two buttons they press most frequently when compared to the remainder of their toolkit?
That, or you’re just throwing out bs numbers. Which is exactly what you’ve been doing.
Edit: here’s an example of a reasonable post.
*Currently 333x221 sims highest for me. Momentum obviously sims a bit higher but it likely won’t see play at least in prog so I’ve left it out.
This build is affected strongly by haste as it reduces the cooldown of blade dance, immo aura, and glaive tempest.
In this build I frequently press:
felblade
immo aura
blade dance
glaive tempest
throw glaive (to fill globals)
consume magic (to fill global, generate fury, and for utility)
chaos strike
Also 8) eye beam*
Here’s an example of a hyperbolic unhelpful post:
Which brings me to my initial request that you define what a standard build is.
Your answer was that wowhead told you so.
So no, I don’t think you’re arriving at conclusions on your own.
Edit edit:
I take your point that I focused one statement. I value the importance of numbers. If you’re going to use numbers, use them correctly.
That said, I agree with you that DH’s are towards the bottom of the meters at this point in time based on readily available sims. There are some performance issues, but those will likely be addressed via aura buffs or nerfs.
That said, it makes little sense for you to discuss what it feels like to play dh if you don’t actually play a dh
